6
   

Who is responsible for opinions on web sites

 
 
dadpad
 
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 02:28 am
I some times post on a website mostly populated by over 13 kids interested in Student exchange. The admin at that site recieved the following.

I represent a client, Two Worlds United, in litigation pending in Florida. Before I subpoena your web host for ownership information, I would like to see if we can resolve my client's issue regarding defamatory material appearing on cultures-shocked.org. Please contact me at your earliest convenience.


(Admin writes)

I looked the guy up and it appears that the email address it came from, the listed telephone number, and his name are all legitimate, and that he's part of the Florida Bar Association (i.e. not a spam message). On some further research, I see that there have been a few comments made on Two Worlds United on these forums; nothing too extreme, but naturally that's a subjective matter.

I contacted him back asking for more information and will keep all of you posted if anything comes of this.
===================================================
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 03:09 am
I'm honestly not clear on what your concerns are here, dp.

Do those concerns apply to A2K?
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 03:30 am
@msolga,
No, my concerns do not relate to A2K.

an example of a cited offensive post.

Thanks for your feedback I do wonder why they don't have more highschool students. I hear they are more into university programs though. Oh well! I feel better knowing that other people are actually doing their program. I almost went with this one called " two worlds", but saw some horrible scandals online, so i just threw out my paperwork. anyone know anything about them?

and

Is CIEE a good exchange programs for high school students? Particularly in Spain.?
Im looking to do a semester in Spain next year for my junior year in high school. I started out looking at two worlds united exchange programs, but saw some bad scandals about in online. So now i have moved onto ciee. The representative said they were only sending 200 high school students to different countries this year, and that number seemed very low to me. Im really far along in the process, and about to send my application in *next week or two*. Anyone who has done this program, knows anything about it, or can give me advice. PLEASE POST. Also, i have looked at many other programs. afs is only for a year in spain. rotary needs an earlier application. ciee seems like my best bet!

i remember reading something about them on this forum. there were stories where people had gotten to the country to find that they didn't have a host family or that living conditions were really bad.

Two Worlds United is a complete scam. Google it and you will find a ton of horrible stories. Glad you backed out!

good for you noticing the scams by TWU.. if I had not heard about the scandals on CS, I would not have known (although I still would have had time to find out possibly).. the website looked/looks very professional, and I would never have guessed... good job
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 04:20 am
The site being threatened by the law dog in Florida, is it a site maintained by an organization in Oz? The reason i ask is because there might be a jurisdictional issue. I'm no lawyer, and pretend no knowledge of the law--however, it occurs to me that if the site is physically located (server, etc.) in Oz, then the law dogs in Florida would have to take up their case there. But, if the site is located in the United States, the threat of legal action might be more critical.

I don't know that any of our law boys and girls here specialize in "cyber" issues, but i suspect that RG will know something about this. Still early morning in the western hemisphere, so you might have to wait a while for his response.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 04:35 am
@Setanta,
Robert never sleeps. Well, almost.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 05:00 am
To the best of my knowledge the server is located in the US. It has a . org domain name. The Admin is, I believe, a US citizen but currently located in another country for study.

I have a further PDF file (threatening letter) which i can't copy/paste, which cites Lipzig Vs Ramlawi
760So.2d 170 FLA. 3d 170 DCA 2000.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 06:47 am
@dadpad,
I'd maybe get legal advice, DP...especially as I think the defamation laws are MUCH tougher in Australia than in the US, although I have no idea where jurisdiction would be held to be.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 10:47 am
FindLaw.com has an essay on defamation suits and the internet:

Quote:
How Easily Should Defamation Plaintiffs Be Able to Find Out the Identities of Anonymous Online Speakers From Internet Service Providers?
(By JULIE HILDEN, FindLaw.com, March 16, 2009)

On February 27, the Maryland Court of Appeals " the state's highest court -- set down some clear rules for when, in that state, a plaintiff challenging an anonymous online posting as defamatory can find out the poster's identity from an Internet Service Provider (ISP). In so doing, the court considered both the poster's right to free speech " including the First Amendment right, recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court, to speak anonymously " and the plaintiff's right to seek a legal remedy for defamation.

In this column, I'll explain the rules the Maryland court chose, and some of the alternatives that other courts have endorsed. I will contend that the Maryland court chose a wise solution in a still-developing area of law.

I will also argue, however, that a federal solution in this area would be a better way for America to address the major differences between online and offline anonymous speech, the way these differences affect defamation law, and the national (and international) nature of the Internet itself.

To begin, the Maryland court agreed with other states' courts that the plaintiff should be required to attempt to notify the anonymous defendant of the lawsuit against him or her, by posting the information on the same message board or other online forum where the allegedly defamatory communication had appeared.

It's no surprise that this reasonable, common-sense requirement has gained courts' favor: It places a minimal burden on the plaintiff while protecting defendants and their First Amendment rights, which include the right to speak anonymously.

Also, it's commonly agreed that it is a key component of due process that the plaintiff must make reasonable efforts to let the defendant know he is being sued. That's why the requirements for valid service of process are laid down by the law, and why sometimes courts require newspaper announcements to be made relating to cases before them.

Much more controversial, among the states, than the notice question, is the question of what must be shown by a defamation plaintiff before he or she can force an ISP to unmask an anonymous poster. The Maryland Court isolated four different tests courts have used or considered: (1) the plaintiff must produce facts sufficient to defeat a motion for summary judgment; (2) the plaintiff's allegations must be sufficient to survive a motion to dismiss the complaint; (3) the plaintiff must have a good faith basis for the suit; (4) the plaintiff must establish facts sufficient to make out a prima facie case as to each of the elements of defamation, including damages and, if such a case is made, the court must balance the defendant's First Amendment right to anonymity against the plaintiff's right to seek a remedy for claimed defamation in deciding whether to unmask the defendant.

Which of these four tests is the best? To begin, even a strong First Amendment advocate like myself must recognize that the first test " the ability to survive a summary judgment motion -- puts too high a burden on the plaintiff.

To prove defamation, a plaintiff must establish a false, defamatory statement, made with the requisite level of intent, that caused damages. Thus, in order to defeat a summary judgment motion, the plaintiff will need to adduce proof of intent -- either "actual malice," defined as knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard as to truth or falsity (for public-figure defendants) or negligence (for private figures). That proof is typically collected in two ways " by deposing the defendant and by examining documents that evidence the plaintiff's state of mind. But, of course, it's impossible to depose or get documents from an anonymous defendant. Thus, this test essentially asks the plaintiff to do something that is impossible: figure out what a defendant knew or thought, without even knowing who he or she is. (The interesting solution of anonymous discovery might solve this issue " but would be very unusual and novel.)

What about the second test " the ability to survive a motion to dismiss? This test is too easy to pass.

Granted, sometimes motions to dismiss do get rid of meritless defamation cases " for instance, if the statement at issue isn't really defamatory, if the statement is of opinion rather than fact, or if the statement is true enough ("substantially true") for First Amendment purposes, even if it is not true in every detail. But generally, a false statement and the mere allegations that the defendant had the required state of mind and that the plaintiff suffered damages, will allow a defamation plaintiff to survive a motion to dismiss. Thus, this test will predictably unmask anonymous posters even when they did not have the required state of mind and/or when the plaintiff did not suffer damages. The third test " the "good faith basis" test -- is similarly too weak, as well as being disturbingly vague.

That leaves us with the fourth test, which the Maryland Court of Appeals wisely embraced: a prima facie case, plus a balancing test. This is the best of the four alternative, yet it still has some disturbing features. To make out a prima facie case, the plaintiff will have to put forth at least some evidence on each element " thus, for instance, preventing cases from being brought when there are no concrete damages. For example, suppose a restaurant sues an anonymous poster for a poor review. If the restaurant's profits have remained steady despite the review, the court may hold that there is no prima facie case as to damages.

But again, even under this fourth test, it will be hard for the plaintiff to put forth any state-of-mind evidence without knowing who the defendant is, and having the ability to pose discovery requests to him or her.

Also, the addition of the balancing test " weighing the need to enforce defamation law against First Amendment concerns, based on the specifics of the given case -- seems somewhat redundant. The test seems likely to protect speech on subjects of intense public interest " for there, the First Amendment aspect is greatest. Yet, when speech concerns such subjects, it seems likely that the plaintiff may not be able to make a prima facie case as to state of mind anyway, for actual malice is likely to be required. And generally, it is a little odd for a court to take the First Amendment into account twice " first in devising the plaintiff's showing, and then second in the balancing test.

No wonder, then, that three of the Maryland Court of Appeals judges agreed with the prima facie case test that the majority adopted, but saw no need to impose an additional balancing test as well.

In sum, the Maryland Court of Appeals was wise in choosing the better options from the menu of solutions that courts have thus far imposed. But the gradual process that is occurring here " common-law development of the standards, along with state courts' watching and learning from other state courts' successes and mistakes " seems wrong in light of the transformative nature of the Internet, and the fact that its audience is national, not local.

Prior to the Internet, of course, individuals' anonymous speech typically had a limited audience. Modern newspapers and other publications generally wouldn't publish anonymous writings (as they had back in the Framers' time, when pseudonyms were common) so such writings' impact was generally local -- confined to, say, unsigned leaflets in a local election. If anonymous speech was widely distributed " as with Deep Throat, Watergate, and the Washington Post " it was first filtered through reporters, who could themselves be sued and, in some cases, forced to reveal their sources or face jail.

Depending on your point of view, those reporters either provided a worthy check to balance anonymity against veracity, or else created an unjustifiable screen through which certain individuals " often, individuals with fairly homogeneous backgrounds and viewpoints " could keep some stories and claims from reaching a wide audience, while letting others through. Reporters were gatekeepers, but was that function honorable, or pernicious? The answer varied based on the facts of the given story or claim and the viewpoint of the person commenting.

Now, the gate is gone. Individuals can speak directly and anonymously on the Internet. At first glance, that reality might seem to obviously call for the strengthening of defamation law " on the theory that individuals can now speak to a mass audience and thus inflict massive damage to reputation. But upon closer examination, the answer is not as clear. Internet readers will naturally discount the weight of anonymous speech, because they know they have no ability to verify it. And the target of the speech can generally reply quickly and effectively on the Internet, too " and also reach a mass audience. Thus, the huge power disparity between the speaker and the target was a more likely situation in the pre-Internet world, than in this one. In addition, I expect to see more effective ways for targets (and their defenders) to reply to their critics as the Internet continues to evolve.

As a matter of policy, it might be a good idea to simply get rid of defamation law on the Internet, and replace it with a means by which those who are attacked can effectively reply to the same audience their attacker reached. This solution would be a kind of Internet fairness doctrine, but because the space for speech on the Internet is near-limitless, it would not be plagued by the problems that the broadcast fairness doctrine has suffered. Rather than choosing speakers to represent "the other side," sites would simply be required to leave message boards open, and to allow new posters to connect their messages with old threads, in order to reply to statements attacking them.

A federal statute embodying this limited right-of-reply might be preferable to allowing courts to craft fifty different solutions to the problem of how to address anonymous speech on what is truly a national (and international) forum. But until Congress or a federal agency takes action, we will be left pretending that the Internet's national forum is no different than the town square.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 11:33 pm
@dadpad,
I'm no lawyer but I've been threatened more than a few times for hosting user-generated content that was alleged to be defamation so I have been in this spot before.

First of all, you ask who is responsible and like any good lawyer would tell you I will say the same: it depends.

But if you want an oversimplification, in the US the person who posted the material is ultimately responsible for it and the message board is not, but knowingly spreading defamation is just one way liability can extend to the webhost. B

For example, Jani-King threatened us over the thread we have about them, where members are complaining about them and calling them a "scam" as well. We just have no way to tell if this is legitimate defamation, if they really are a scam that is almost always an airtight defense against defamation and it's not the website operator's job to make such judgements. That is what courts are for.

So to resist chilling effects, specifically in these cases where a company uses the threat of litigation to silence criticism, I personally do not cave in at this stage at all unless they can provide clear evidence of defamation (and most of the time it's a subjective opinion they disagree with, like one person who threatened another site I started over an article that portrayed him as predatory and self-interested) that I can clearly see is defamation and that I personally don't want to defend I would require it to go well beyond a first threatening letter before content removal is considered.

The first step I would make is to clearly outline this position of defense of free speech, and introduce public relations consequences. I inform the companies that all such legal threats would be submitted to chillingeffects.org to make public (with personal information from the correspondence redacted), which is an organization that helps fight for free speech when it's unfairly threatened by precisely such threats.

Usually the threats stop here or go in circles a bit ("I'll call my lawyer!" "You go on and do so" "Serious, I'm gonna sue you." "Have at it.") but I also give the users who made the posts a chance to retract anything they wish to in case they want to limit their own liability (e.g. on the Jani-King thread we announced the threat and offered to help any of the participants who wanted to redact their comments after informing them that they are ultimately responsible for them). So far I've not yet been forced to remove any of the criticism that I received threats about but it's also important to note that they may just threaten the website's host and the host may be stupid and spineless (I've had them shut servers down based on the most illegitimate legal threats) so by all means the website owners should decide if this is a battle they want to fight, but my own opinion is that they are in a good position to do so.

I'd make sure to inform the user though, from the examples posted the only part I think they could make a case at all about are explicit claims that they are a "scam" because the parts where the user says he/she ran into bad reviews online is certainly not defamation unless it's knowingly false and an attempt to harm the company. The user may wish to redact something and render the complaint moot and the user also deserves a chance to limit their own liability, in my opinion, because if subpoenaed for the information most sites will have to give it.

The chillingeffects.org site I mentioned earlier is a good starting point for dealing with this kind of case, by the way, and while revisiting them I noticed they have a good FAQ page for defamation claims:

http://www.chillingeffects.org/defamation/faq.cgi
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 04:29 am
One of the mods on the site is a Law student.
that poster contacted a prof of law.


i just got off the phone with my prof. and he said the following:

1. Make sure this is a real lawyer... he stated that most lawyers would NEVER email something like this..

2. Do NOT give your FULL name, address or telephone number...

3. Consider removing said things, if we are scared of them... and have no personal care...

4. make sure in our user agreement that it states that we take absolutley NO responsibility for things posted by our users and that our users are at least 13 years of age.... ( I dont know why the last part)...

He said the first step is to call the number listed on the emailed letter from a phone not our own (maybe a payphone/friends phone), and ask the following:

1. Is this a law office?
2. Does ______________ work in this office?
3. Does _______________ work with internet/defamatory/libel/slander cases?
Then thank them for their answers etc, provide no information... pretend you may be a potential client kind of thing.

Also, unless they know our adress or phone number, they cannot file a suit against us... though they CAN get that through ISP... but they need to go through a seperate court date for that to even happen, so it will take some time before that would ever happen, IF they are indeed a law office.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 04:30 am
Another poster gave this advice


I did check with one of my friends who does copyright law for websites and some production companies in California and without her digging into all the particulars of the law, she said that her general advice was to remove the posts and then inform them that we had done so. She was less sure about the defamation stuff, but that it probably wasn't worth fighting them about it unless it was super important to us.

She said as far as the copyright stuff was concerned, they hadn't really given us specific notice and that we would be protected against further action on the copyright stuff if we removed it. Again, she didn't really know about the defamation stuff. Her general suggestion was to remove the posts, let the lawyer know, and not mention the user names or anything else unless they do again.

Also, she looked at the document they sent requesting the usernames, and she said that that was not an official subpoena. What they sent us was just a MS Word document and a subpoena is an official court document. So, for the time being she thinks that we don't have to give them any info on the usernames they are requesting. She says that they could get a subpoena if they actually filed a suit against CS, but that what they sent us now is not a subpoena as far as she can tell from what I sent her, which is what they had sent Jason.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 05:41 am
chilling effects says the following


Question: Can an ISP or the host of the message board or chat room be held liable for defamatory of libelous statements made by others on the message board?

Answer: Not in the United States. Under 47 U.S.C. sec. 230(c)(1) (CDA Sec. 230): "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." This provision has been uniformly interpreted by the Courts to provide complete protection against defamation or libel claims made against an ISP, message board or chat room where the statements are made by third parties. Note that this immunity does not extend to claims made under intellectual property laws.


Question: Must an ISP or message board host delete postings that someone tells him/her are defamatory? Can the ISP or message board delete postings in response to a request from a third party?

Answer: No, they are not required to delete. 47 U.S.C. sec. 230 gives most ISPs and message board hosts the discretion to keep postings or delete them, whichever they prefer, in response to claims by others that a posting is defamatory or libelous. Most ISPs and message board hosts also post terms of service that give them the right to delete or not delete messages as they see fit and such terms have generally been held to be enforceable under law.
0 Replies
 
Concerned Parent
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 11:22 am
@dadpad,
Hello:
We are currently experiencing problems with my niece in CIEE Japan program. She is on her 3rd Host Family. Now they want $1,000 US Dollars a month to place her with a Paid Host family on top of tuition which was not in the contract. Beware. The communication between CIEE and WYS in Japan is horrible. The kid is stressed out. She has not done anything wrong according to the rules. Now she may have to come home early. She has been there since Sept 09. There is also another 17 year old student from CIEE and WYS who had the same problem and she is on You Tube. Good luck.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

YouTube Is Doomed - Discussion by Shapeless
So I just joined Facebook.... - Discussion by DrewDad
Internet disinformation overload - Discussion by rosborne979
Participatory Democracy Online - Discussion by wandeljw
OpenDNS and net neutrality - Question by Butrflynet
Internet Explorer 8? - Question by Pitter
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Who is responsible for opinions on web sites
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/04/2024 at 01:13:14