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Wed 7 Oct, 2009 09:43 am
I think these assholes should get the death penalty. They killed an 11-year-old girl with their religious ******* idiocy. This is why I hate religion and all the fanatical pieces of **** like this. They kill their daughter and end up getting one month in jail each year for six years? What the **** kind of sentence is that? Give 'em the chair, I say!
Parents given jail terms for relying on prayers to save dying daughter
Judge orders them to serve one month in jail each year for six years
Associated Press
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 7 October 2009 16.08 BST
An American couple in Wisconsin who prayed rather than seeking medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years' probation for second-degree homicide.
Dale and Leilani Neumann could have received up to 25 years in prison over the March 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes.
Marathon county circuit court Judge Vincent Howard told the Neumanns they were "very good people, raising their family, who made a bad decision, a reckless decision. God probably works through other people," he told the parents, "some of them doctors."
Prosecutors contended the Neumanns recklessly killed their youngest of four children by ignoring obvious symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk. They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but relied totally on prayer for healing. The girl, known as Kara, died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone finally called the emergency services after she stopped breathing.
"We are here today because to some, you made Kara a martyr to your faith," Howard told the parents.
In testimony at trial and videotaped interviews with police, the parents said they believe healing came from God and that they never expected their daughter to die as they prayed for her and summoned others to do the same.
The judge ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for six years so the parents can "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this". One parent would serve the term in March and the other in September. Howard stayed the jail sentences while the couple's convictions are appealed.
@kickycan,
What a tragedy.
I will never understand those who rely on 'prayer' for healing, they don't rely on prayer for anything else. It's obvious that any God who might exist works in a variety of ways, why demand direct miraculous attention rather than just call the goddamn hospital?
Cycloptichorn
they could line them up in front of a firing squad, and then have their friends pray that the bullets miss them, see how that works for them
Maybe these people should have prayed to Joe Pesci.
@kickycan,
The idea that they "killed their daughter" is over-the-top ridiculous. The girl died of a deadly disease. Not too long ago, everyone who had this disease died.
It is one thing to say that this is criminal (and I would agree with you if you were saying this).
But to imply that this crime (a criminal faith that God will cure your daughter) is equal to the parents who actively drown, stab or burn their children to death is too ludicrous to even address.
Ironically. one of the problems of religion is that it makes people see issues in only black and white and takes away their ability to see the complex issues underneath.
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:
The idea that they "killed their daughter" is over-the-top ridiculous. The girl died of a deadly disease. Not too long ago, everyone who had this disease died.
It is one thing to say that this is criminal (and I would agree with you if you were saying this).
But to imply that this crime (a criminal faith that God will cure your daughter) is equal to the parents who actively drown, stab or burn their children to death is too ludicrous to even address.
Ironically. one of the problems of religion is that it makes people see issues in only black and white and takes away their ability to see the complex issues underneath.
So, if you watch your daughter fall in a pool, and drop to your knees to pray that God saves her, instead of jumping in - you didn't kill that girl? It was the
pool that killed her?
Interesting viewpoint there.
Cycloptichorn
I can't imagine any punishment for a parent could be worse than losing a child. Maybe they should be required to do work in a children's hospital where children are treated by doctors and medical intervention and where a person's spiritual beliefs do not determine the outcome. Jail time doesn't really make much sense. They truly believed they were doing the right thing and were not trying to kill their daughter. This is a case of ignorance and brainwashing (they were probably raised with these beliefs), so I think education and experience would have a better long term effect on their conscience. Maybe they will have an epiphany and be able to council other people who believe as they do that they might want to try something beyond prayer to save a life.
@ebrown p,
Parents don't always know best.
They allowed their daughter to die because they thought they and their g-d knew best.
I hope the rest of their children are removed from their custody, if that has not already happened.
I would like to know how much this venom revolves around knee-jerk anti-religious bigotry. Let's consider other situations where a parents idiocy causes their children to die.
Do you have the same vitriol for parents who don't make their kids wear seat belts, or parents who don't lock their gun cabinet?
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:
I would like to know how much this venom revolves around knee-jerk anti-religious bigotry. Let's consider other situations where a parents idiocy causes their children to die.
Do you have the same vitriol for parents who don't make their kids wear seat belts, or parents who don't lock their gun cabinet?
Yes, and Yes. You are given a responsibility, it's your goddamn job to live up to that responsibility. I don't buy when people decide for 'religious reasons' not to live up to their responsibility.
Cycloptichorn
@ebrown p,
Nonsense. Diabetes is a pain in the ass, but it is
completely treatable in
every case. Only a complete asshole watches their child die without seeking medical attention. I see very little between these idiots and the monsters that drown their children in the tub.
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:Do you have the same vitriol for parents who don't make their kids wear seat belts, or parents who don't lock their gun cabinet?
yes, neglect is neglect, plain and simple
@Cycloptichorn,
I agree that what they did was criminal. I am only asking for moderation (and I am not often the one to do that).
When a kid dies in a car crash while she is not wearing a seatbelt-- everyone agrees that this is criminal stupidity on the part of the parents. And most people agree that there should be some punishment for the parents.
In the car crash case, you don't see people calling for firing squads or even absurdly long prison sentences.
Everyone agrees that there should be consequences in these cases. I am only saying that these consequences should be fair (i.e. not subject to the passions of the bigoted mob).
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:I see very little between these idiots and the monsters that drown their children in the tub.
There is a huge difference between intent to kill and ignorance that leads to death.
@ebrown p,
I think I've probably indicated that I don't have any particular knee-jerk reaction against religious people.
I think that these kinds of sentences are important, not just for this situation but for a deterrent effect. I really don't think this sort of thing should be sanctioned or even tolerated. The disease was treatable. She was actively prevented from getting treatment. Intolerable.
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:
I agree that what they did was criminal. I am only asking for moderation (and I am not often the one to do that).
When a kid dies in a car crash while she is not wearing a seatbelt-- everyone agrees that this is criminal stupidity on the part of the parents. And most people agree that there should be some punishment for the parents.
In the car crash case, you don't see people calling for firing squads or even absurdly long prison sentences.
Everyone agrees that their should be consequences in these cases. I am only saying that these consequences should be fair (and not based on bigotry).
Yes, but a car crash is a sudden thing. It happens so fast, that we accept that the parents made a mistake and didn't have time to fix it. People make mistakes, we all know that.
It's a whole other taco to sit there and watch your child die over the course of four days. It
wasn't a mistake on the part of the parents. They knew what they were doing, and they consciously chose to let the child suffer and then die. It was likely horrible torture for the child and completely, 100% preventable, and they had plenty of time to prevent it. They chose not to.
That's a homicide right there bro.
Cycloptichorn
@ebrown p,
That's nonsense. Cyclo has already provided an analogy of watching one's child drown. In fact, when North Carolina passed their child restraint law, within days a little girl was killed when her father allowed her to stand on the seat while he drove his truck, and when she was hurled through the windshield and killed, he was prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and was sentenced to years in the penitentiary.
How much of your over-the-top response is knee-jerk defense of the religious, no matter how goofy and irresponsible their behavior is?
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Nonsense. Diabetes is a pain in the ass, but it is completely treatable in every case. Only a complete asshole watches their child die without seeking medical attention. I see very little between these idiots and the monsters that drown their children in the tub.
I agree re diabetes.
However - in Wisconsin, according to state law, spiritual healers a privilege from all conduct otherwise criminal.
When I read the
more recent news, I do sincerely hope that none of their other ever gets ill and needs a doctor.
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:In the car crash case, you don't see people calling for firing squads or even absurdly long prison sentences.
Six months over six years. Not nearly long enough.
That people aren't sentenced for longer periods of time in other cases doesn't make this sentence long or inappropriate. It could mean the other punishments are too limited.
There should be no "credit" for murder by stupidity and neglect.
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