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Religious Nuts Kill Own Daughter—Is Their Sentence Appropriate?

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 11:34 am
@farmerman,
Disagreeing with the over-the-top reactions isn't downplaying the crime, it's disagreement with the over-the-top reactions.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 11:35 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

I agree with ebrown, the calls for the death penalty are likely ascribable to religious bigotry.

These people are subscribing to dangerous delusions, and it's important to take the intent into context. They just aren't murderers, and calling them such (like on Wilso's other thread about this) and calling for the death penalty is just another form of ignorance about the matter.


Or maybe it's hyperbole that comes from a disgust with religious idiocy. How is it bigoted to be pissed at stupid people who cause death with that stupidity? Maybe your definition of bigotry is different than mine.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 11:36 am
population control is not always a bad idea.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 11:39 am
@kickycan,
kickycan wrote:
Or maybe it's hyperbole that comes from a disgust with religious idiocy. How is it bigoted to be pissed at stupid people who cause death with that stupidity? Maybe your definition of bigotry is different than mine.


People have different triggers. Polanski doesn't seem to be triggering as much outrage he would if he were a Catholic priest for example. If the crime comes from a demographic you already have a beef with it seems to generate more outrage. I object to this phenomenon. It's for similar reasons that blacks will get harsher punishments than whites (though admittedly different in that black isn't a choice). The same crime is viewed in a different lens based on demographic biases.

So my qualm is that the beef people have with religion, which I understand and share, is being added on as baggage to this case. You probably wouldn't call for the death penalty, hyperbole or not, for secular negligence.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  4  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 11:43 am
@kickycan,
Quote:
Or maybe it's hyperbole that comes from a disgust with religious idiocy. How is it bigoted to be pissed at stupid people who cause death with that stupidity? Maybe your definition of bigotry is different than mine.


Do you make a distinction between religious idiocy and non-religious idiocy?

It is interesting you use the phrase "disgust with religious idiocy" (which singles out the religious) in the first sentence. In the second sentence you question whether it is bigoted or not to be pissed at "stupid people who cause death" (which includes both religious stupid people and non-religious stupid people).

It is certainly not bigotry if you have a same strong reaction to non-religious stupid people who cause death that you do to religious stupid people who cause death.

An implication that religious people are stupid would be bigoted-- as is the idea that the crimes of people who are religious should be punished more severely.

joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 11:54 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, if you watch your daughter fall in a pool, and drop to your knees to pray that God saves her, instead of jumping in - you didn't kill that girl? It was the pool that killed her?

No, it was GOD that killed her. Just like the kid in this case. She probably pissed off God somehow. Serves her right.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 12:17 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
Do you make a distinction between religious idiocy and non-religious idiocy?


I certainly do. Religious idiocy is the absolute, bar-none worst form of idiocy, because it is impervious to logic or attempts to argue people around. Absolutely impervious to it. It also inspires Zeal to a greater degree than almost any other human idea.

This creates very dangerous situations for the rest of us, while providing very little benefit. So yeah - I personally look down on religious idiots more than regular idiots.

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 12:27 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Prosecutors had asked for a three-year suspended prison sentence and 10 years probation. Defense attorneys had sought four years probation.

The judge ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for six years so the parents can "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this." One parent would serve the term in March and the other in September. Howard stayed the jail sentences while the couple's convictions are appealed.

As part of their probation, the parents must allow a public health nurse to examine their two underage children at least once every three months and must immediately take their children to a doctor for any serious injuries.

Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson said justice was served by the sentences, but he was disappointed the parents never said they were sorry for what happened.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5idOw7yXOoyaU14MWjkJIllXXjMoQD9B5UTB80
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 12:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Religious idiocy is the absolute, bar-none worst form of idiocy, because it is impervious to logic or attempts to argue people around. Absolutely impervious to it. It also inspires Zeal to a greater degree than almost any other human idea.


So...

You are making an "absolute" broad argument with nothing to back it up. You make it clear that your opinion is impervious to logic and that there is no argument I could make that would change your mind.

This issue obviously inspires a great deal of zeal in you and people who share your viewpoint.

I hope you can see the irony here.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:01 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
Religious idiocy is the absolute, bar-none worst form of idiocy, because it is impervious to logic or attempts to argue people around. Absolutely impervious to it. It also inspires Zeal to a greater degree than almost any other human idea.


So...

You are making an "absolute" broad argument with nothing to back it up. You make it clear that your opinion is impervious to logic and that there is no argument I could make that would change your mind.


Bullshit and weak. Provide examples of groups who are more prone to illogical behavior and less able to be swayed by argumentation than the Religious idiot.

Quote:
This issue obviously inspires a great deal of zeal in you and people who share your viewpoint.

I hope you can see the irony here.


I can see how poorly you've attempted to construct a counter-argument, but that's about it. The idea that I or others have any sort of real 'zeal' towards the Religious idiot is ridiculous, because the actions taken by these groups are not comparable.

Religious idiot zealots do things like kill people, let kids die rather than help them, pray for people's deaths, and advocate wars against other countries.

Those who oppose religious idiots... do nothing of the sort, kill nobody, pray for nobody's death, and condemn nobody. There is no real comparison between the two groups.

I understand that this is a tough argument for you to be making, you should consider the wisdom of pursuing it any further, rather than just backing off.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:02 pm
@Green Witch,
Green Witch wrote:

I can't imagine any punishment for a parent could be worse than losing a child. Maybe they should be required to do work in a children's hospital where children are treated by doctors and medical intervention and where a person's spiritual beliefs do not determine the outcome. Jail time doesn't really make much sense. They truly believed they were doing the right thing and were not trying to kill their daughter. This is a case of ignorance and brainwashing (they were probably raised with these beliefs), so I think education and experience would have a better long term effect on their conscience. Maybe they will have an epiphany and be able to council other people who believe as they do that they might want to try something beyond prayer to save a life.




I like green witch's post. But I don't know that they are capable of learning. Some people watch as their loved ones die then wait on the corpse to return to life, believing God will make it happen. This sort of thing goes beyond ignorance straight to utter stupidity. When it is plain that parents will not care for their children, the children should be taken away.
kickycan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:05 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:


Do you make a distinction between religious idiocy and non-religious idiocy?

It is interesting you use the phrase "disgust with religious idiocy" (which singles out the religious) in the first sentence.

An implication that religious people are stupid would be bigoted-- as is the idea that the crimes of people who are religious should be punished more severely.


I don't make a distinction, although it does piss me off ten times more when it's religious idiocy, because that kind of idiocy is not born simply of ignorance, but of willful ignorance even in the face of known facts. But yes, if I saw an article about two dumb motherfuckers who were in the middle of a drunken binge while their kid was having a seizure and died, I'd definitely want those people to pay for what they'd done as well.

In fact, I think it's reverse religious bigotry that allows these people to get the ridiculous sentence they got. Do you believe that if they'd been drunks in my scenario they would have gotten a 1-month per year jail sentence?
kickycan
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:09 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Green Witch wrote:

I can't imagine any punishment for a parent could be worse than losing a child. Maybe they should be required to do work in a children's hospital where children are treated by doctors and medical intervention and where a person's spiritual beliefs do not determine the outcome. Jail time doesn't really make much sense. They truly believed they were doing the right thing and were not trying to kill their daughter. This is a case of ignorance and brainwashing (they were probably raised with these beliefs), so I think education and experience would have a better long term effect on their conscience. Maybe they will have an epiphany and be able to council other people who believe as they do that they might want to try something beyond prayer to save a life.





I like green witch's post. But I don't know that they are capable of learning. Some people watch as their loved ones die then wait on the corpse to return to life, believing God will make it happen. This sort of thing goes beyond ignorance straight to utter stupidity. When it is plain that parents will not care for their children, the children should be taken away.



I agree as well, if by education she means a nice lobotomy.
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:14 pm
@kickycan,
I don't know about reverse religious bigotry Kicky. I think they looked at the people to determine if they were being willfully negligent. You discount the fact that faith can be an amazingly strong factor in some people's lives - even if it is wrong and has devastating effects. Look at Jim Jones and all the people that followed him to their deaths. I believe that is why these parents did not say they were sorry. I am pretty sure that their pastor led them to believe that it was God's will that Kara die, or God would have saved her. They probably think they did all they could.

I am not of that belief. I think these parents had to have a pretty sturdy faith. Because I can tell you, I have my kids at the Dr. at the first sign of anything of a questionable nature going on. And I am a Christian and I do believe in prayer...but I do believe God gave us resources to use...Doctors being one of them.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:35 pm
Because a few people advocated the death penalty is not evidence that the arguments of others who condemn these people as murderously irresponsible are wrong. There was a couple in Ohio, vegans, who were convicted of child endangerment because of the seriously chronically malnourished state of their children, who were taken away from them. These people were zealots, they harmed their children through the irresponsible behavior engendered by their zealotry and they have paid a price--deservedly.

Brown keeps advancing a special pleading inferentially, by attempting to suggest that people here are being motivated by religious bigotry which motivates hatred of the religiously devout. I condemn for his lethal irresponsibility the man who killed his daughter by leaving her to stand on the seat of his truck while he drove on an interstate highway. I condemn for their irresponsibility the couple who endangerd the health of their children (they may never be "normal" in terms of their development and health) because of their fanatical adherence to "veganism." And i condemn idiots like this, who allow their children to die because of their adherence to an irrational and irresponsible superstition.

Just because this is a question of religious fervor is no reason to make a distinction between this criminal irresponsibility and any other form. I suggest that Brown is attempting to argue that the condemnation of these people is being motivated by hatred of religion, rather than justifiable disgust with their criminal irresponsibility. That's bullshit, and it is inferentially a case of special pleading.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:36 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:

I don't know about reverse religious bigotry Kicky. I think they looked at the people to determine if they were being willfully negligent. You discount the fact that faith can be an amazingly strong factor in some people's lives - even if it is wrong and has devastating effects. Look at Jim Jones and all the people that followed him to their deaths. I believe that is why these parents did not say they were sorry. I am pretty sure that their pastor led them to believe that it was God's will that Kara die, or God would have saved her. They probably think they did all they could.

I am not of that belief. I think these parents had to have a pretty sturdy faith. Because I can tell you, I have my kids at the Dr. at the first sign of anything of a questionable nature going on. And I am a Christian and I do believe in prayer...but I do believe God gave us resources to use...Doctors being one of them.

What is comes down to is that they had a custodial duty to the kid, but let her die under their noses when they could have saved her with a phone call. They deserve punishment.
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:37 pm
@kickycan,
Quote:

In fact, I think it's reverse religious bigotry that allows these people to get the ridiculous sentence they got. Do you believe that if they'd been drunks in my scenario they would have gotten a 1-month per year jail sentence?


Sure.

There are plenty of cases of negligent homicide due to intoxication that have lead to suspended sentences. The only difference is that you don't start threads about them.
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:45 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I condemn for his lethal irresponsibility the man who killed his daughter by leaving her to stand on the seat of his truck while he drove on an interstate highway. I condemn for their irresponsibility the couple who endangerd the health of their children (they may never be "normal" in terms of their development and health) because of their fanatical adherence to "veganism." And i condemn idiots like this, who allow their children to die because of their adherence to an irrational and irresponsible superstition.


It think you are missing the point Setanta.

I also condemn all of these cases. There is no bigotry if they are all treated the same. If one case is punished more harshly than another because of the religion involved, that is where the bigotry comes in.

When dealing with negligent homicide, it seems to me that several factors should be weighed without prejudice. These would include intent, the chance of recurrence and of course, what is best for other children involved.

There are plenty of cases where negligent homicide results in a suspended sentence. We have a justice system to make that decision that is based on the ideal that prejudiced attitudes toward religion have no part in the outcome.


joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Religious idiocy is the absolute, bar-none worst form of idiocy, because it is impervious to logic or attempts to argue people around. Absolutely impervious to it.

But constitution cranks are right up there.
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 01:54 pm
@Brandon9000,
I am not saying they don't. I am saying I agree with Green Witch that these people are ignorant. By sentencing them to work in hospitals where they can see children being cared for and cured by the doctors they will see a more sound faith being practised. They did not willfully kill that child. I would hope that they could see how useless a faith that does not take into account God-given (in my opinion - maybe not yours, but that's okay) abilities to heal diseases. This would allow them to care for the children that they still have better, without them having to be taken away.

I would think they would be willing to serve whatever sentence - but never discount selfishness - even in the most devout believer.

I would think that in any unfounded and unwise practice especially regarding children that the end outcome would be wiser parents that learned tragically in some cases that this is not the best way to care for their children. I would hope that the children could stay with their parents...I guess the problem is whether the parents are hard headed enough that they still believe strongly in keeping to their original belief. In that case, it is risky to leave a child with the parent . I would say it is better safe than sorry and that taking the children away would be the wisest move.

As far as punishment is concerned, I thought most people felt that reforming people was the end outcome. In that case it makes better sense to me to put the parents somewhere they would be actually learning.

Of course the main concern here would be for the other children. It's just a sad situation all around.
 

 
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