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Differential Calculus

 
 
xy2k
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2003 06:41 am
If dy/dx is used to find the gradient of a curve and d2y/dx2 is used to find whether a turning point is maximum or minimum, what are d3y/dx3, d4y/dx4, and so on used for?

Thanks! Cool
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2003 07:06 am
Find the same points relative to other higher derivatives. Calculus is just he mathematics of change, and if you have an equation with a very high order-of-magnitude describing some system, you can differentiate many times to examine different dynamics of the system. (Or, a simpler answer: they're used to turn x^5 into 120x.)
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2003 08:17 am
Think about equations of the forms

i) y = x

ii) y = x^2

iii) y = x^3

iv) y = x^4

v) y = x^5

..

(or the sums of the right hand side) and think about the derivatives of each order, then you will be able to figure out some significance of the derivatives of each order.
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angryredplanet
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2003 08:15 pm
Re: Differential Calculus
xy2k wrote:
If dy/dx is used to find the gradient of a curve and d2y/dx2 is used to find whether a turning point is maximum or minimum, what are d3y/dx3, d4y/dx4, and so on used for?


Patiodog gave a good answer, I just wanted to explain it in a little more detail, phrase it a little differently.

You know the derivative tells you the slope, the rate of change of a function. Think about it. The second derivative gives you not only minimum and maximum points, it gives you the complete rate of change of the first derivative. The third derivative gives you the minimum and maximum points and the rate of change of the second derivative... get it?

They are used for whatever you want to use them for. Maybe in addition to knowing when the speed is at a maximum or minimum, you want to know when acceleration is at a maximum or minimum. Or when the change in acceleration is maximum or minimum.

Your question is kind of like "OK, now I know how to multiply two numbers (2x2), what good is it to multiply three or four numbers (2x2x2, 2x2x2x2, etc)??" Hmm... instead of measuring surfaces, you can now measure volumes and flows, and calculate progressive phenomena. Math does not have a meaning in itself, it is simply a tool. Be patient, and you might find uses for your new knowledge...
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 03:03 pm
Very nicely put, red. It's nice to know which way the wind is blowing right now, right here, but it would be nicer to know which way the wind will be blowing, and how hard, all over the country a week from Tuesday.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 03:16 pm
We used differential calculus in a business class to calucalate the carrying cost of inventory.
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xy2k
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2003 11:25 am
Re: Differential Calculus
angryredplanet wrote:
xy2k wrote:
If dy/dx is used to find the gradient of a curve and d2y/dx2 is used to find whether a turning point is maximum or minimum, what are d3y/dx3, d4y/dx4, and so on used for?


Patiodog gave a good answer, I just wanted to explain it in a little more detail, phrase it a little differently.

You know the derivative tells you the slope, the rate of change of a function. Think about it. The second derivative gives you not only minimum and maximum points, it gives you the complete rate of change of the first derivative. The third derivative gives you the minimum and maximum points and the rate of change of the second derivative... get it?

They are used for whatever you want to use them for. Maybe in addition to knowing when the speed is at a maximum or minimum, you want to know when acceleration is at a maximum or minimum. Or when the change in acceleration is maximum or minimum.

Your question is kind of like "OK, now I know how to multiply two numbers (2x2), what good is it to multiply three or four numbers (2x2x2, 2x2x2x2, etc)??" Hmm... instead of measuring surfaces, you can now measure volumes and flows, and calculate progressive phenomena. Math does not have a meaning in itself, it is simply a tool. Be patient, and you might find uses for your new knowledge...


Cheers arp! That was confusing but I think I got most of it Very Happy
0 Replies
 
zex
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 12:49 am
The third derivative is called "jerk". We had fun with that for about two seconds in high school.
0 Replies
 
DocGWB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 01:13 pm
@xy2k,
they have no use for maxima and minima.
At a point of inflexion both dy/dx=0 AND d2y/dx2 = 0 but d3y/dx3 is not 0
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 02:40 pm
@DocGWB,
That's not necessarily true. Anyway, these functions and their expansions tend to become clearer if you plot them - here for instance is y=x^5:
http://www90.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y%3Dx^5

http://www4c.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP221196791gd840adi0d00002id46ch7ai952f59?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=54
0 Replies
 
 

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