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Another Fine Mess - Coup Rocks Honduras

 
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 10:19 pm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124619401378065339.html

Quote:
Honduran soldiers rousted President Manuel Zelaya from his bed and exiled him at gunpoint Sunday to Costa Rica, halting his controversial push to redraw the constitution but spurring fresh concerns about democratic rule across Latin America.


Quote:
The U.S. and other countries condemned the coup. President Barack Obama said he was "deeply concerned" and called on all political actors in Honduras to "respect democratic norms." Venezuela President Hugo Chávez, a close ally of Mr. Zelaya and nemesis of the U.S., said he would consider it an ''act of war" if there were hostilities against his diplomats. "I have put the armed forces of Venezuela on alert," Mr. Chávez said.


Quote:
Honduras's Supreme Court gave the order for the military to detain the president, according to a former Supreme Court official who is in touch with the court.


Quote:
Later, Honduras's Congress formally removed Mr. Zelaya from the presidency and named congressional leader Roberto Micheletti as his successor until the end of Mr. Zelaya's term in January. Mr. Micheletti and others said they were the defenders, not opponents, of democratic rule.

Mr. Micheletti is a member of Mr. Zelaya's Liberal party. But he had opposed his plans for a referendum that could have led to overturning the constitution's ban on re-election, allowing Mr. Zelaya to potentially stay in power past January, when his term ends.

Mr. Zelaya, a frequent critic of the U.S., has been locked in a growing confrontation with his country's Congress, courts, and military over his plans for the referendum -- planned for Sunday -- that would have asked voters whether they want to scrap the constitution, which the president says benefits the country's elites.

The Supreme Court had ruled the vote was illegal because it flouted the constitution's own ban on such referendums within six months of elections. The military had refused to take its usual role of distributing ballots. But Mr. Zelaya fired the chief of the army last week and pledged to press ahead.


Quote:
The U.S. stand was unpopular with Honduran deputies. One congressman, Toribio Aguilera, got prolonged applause from his colleagues when he urged the U.S. ambassador to reconsider. Mr. Aguilera said the U.S. didn't understand the danger that Mr. Zelaya and his friendships with Mr. Chavez and Cuba's Fidel Castro posed.

Retired Honduran Gen. Daniel López Carballo justified the move against the president, telling CNN that if the military hadn't acted, Mr. Chávez would eventually be running Honduras by proxy. It was a common view Sunday. "An official who was subverting legality and had violated the Constitution was removed," wrote Mariela Colindres, a 21-year-old Honduran who is studying at Indiana University, in an email. "Everything was done legally and this does not imply a rupture in the constitutional order."


Quote:
Both sides of the Honduras crisis traded allegations Sunday. The secretary of Honduras' congress, José Alfredo Saavedra, showed reporters what he said was a resignation letter signed by Mr. Zelaya. The letter cited the crisis and "insuperable health problems" in resigning. Mr. Zelaya said it was a fake.
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 10:29 pm
Al Jazeera English
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 04:48 am
Quote:
Moves to try to stay in power through the ballot box have become increasingly common in Latin America.


What's the big deal? Latins have learned that the referendum ballot is mightier than the sword.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 04:58 pm
@panzade,
Zelaya tried to take a page for the book of Hugo Chavez and arrange to become President for Life, through a referendum intended to amend the Honduran constitution and eliminate its presidential term limit.

The Honduran constitution, however, does not permit the president to activate a public referendum to approve constitutional amendments. This power clearly lies only with congress.

Zelaya ordered the vote and intended to use ballots provided to him by his good friend Hugo Chavez. The Honduran Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's referendum illegal and ordered the military to not carry out logistics. Zelaya nevertheless ordered the military to do just that and when the military’s top commander refused, Zelaya fired him. The Supreme Court order the general reinstated, but Zelaya refused.

Zelaya ignored the Supreme Court's ruling on the referendum and led a crowd of supporters to break into the military offices where the ballots were being held, and then had them begin distribution.

Honduran's attorney general had already announced that he would prosecute anyone that attempted to run the outlawed referendum, and so Zelaya was arrested by the military and exiled to Costa Rica.

The Honduran Supreme Court has announced that the military acted on its orders and that when Zelaya realized he was going to be prosecuted for violating its order, agreed to resign in exchange for safe passage to Cost Rica. Zelaya denies this.

The Honduran congress held an emergency session and named an interim president in accordance with Honduran law. The interim president is a member of Congress and of Zelaya's party. In fact Zelaya's party recently passed a resolution to investigate whether or not Zelaya was mentally fit to serve.

It doesn't appear that Zelaya was much of a favorite of the Honduran people. Street protests have been underway protesting his policies.

Our government has joined Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Daniel Ortega in demanding that Zelaya be restored to the presidency.




panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 05:53 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Our government has joined Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Daniel Ortega in demanding that Zelaya be restored to the presidency.
Shocked
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 06:05 pm
I have to say I'm neutral in this conflict. The military coup is unconstitutional, as was the president's referendum to extend his own presidency. The way things currently look, I think the Obama administration made a mistake in condemning the coup and asking for the reinstatement of the president. Why didn't they remain neutral instead?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 06:26 pm
@Thomas,
The United States has long had too much of a sense of ownership about Latin America. Most people aren't aware, for example, that Sandino in Nicaragua, for whom the Sandinistas named themselves, lead a popular uprising which was put down by the U. S. Marines. The Nicarguans used to refer to the last of the Somozas who was dictator in Nicaragua as "the last Marine." For quite a while, the United States ran a military academy in Panama for Latin American military officers, which assured close ties between them and the United States. I don't know if it's still in business, though.

I agree with you, we should remain neutral. If we can't help the situation, and very likely we can't in 19 out of 20 cases, we should keep our mouths shut. Not hat i have much hope for that.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 06:30 pm
Here is an interesting account on the School of the Americas done by PBS in 1999. Apparently, it was forced out of Panama in 1984, and set up again at Fort Benning, Georgia.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 07:27 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Quote:
Our government has joined Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and Daniel Ortega in demanding that Zelaya be restored to the presidency.
Shocked


Keep great company, don't we?
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 07:28 pm
@Thomas,
I disagree, the referendum may have been illegal, and Zelaya doesn't score any points for trying to extend his presidential eligibility but he claims he was just going to run a "poll" to gauge support for it. It still had a ways to play out and this part of it all is an internal affair that I don't think the US should take sides on.

However a military coup is not. The diverse leaders of Latin America spoke in one voice for a reason, Latin America has a painful history of military leaders. It is up to other nations to decide whether or not to recognize a leader's legitimacy, and I think it was important to come out against this military coup.

If Zelaya's actions were illegal he should have been arrested and tried for them, not exiled. Their supreme court, incensed that Zelaya repeatedly thumbed his nose at them said this was an approved action, as the military was ordered not to allow the referendum to occur. But exiling the president by military force is of dubious legal validity, and Obama is right to stand up for due process and the democratic process.

His words won't influence Honduras much, and Zelaya was supposed to be out the door in less than a year anyway, but it's important given the US history in the region to support the rule of law and the democratic process and speak out against military coups that have historically visited a lot of pain upon Latin America.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 07:29 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Keep great company, don't we?


Looks that way if you cherry pick the company, but I don't know of a single nation that does not hold this position so it's otherwise unremarkable.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 08:46 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
I disagree, the referendum may have been illegal, and Zelaya doesn't score any points for trying to extend his presidential eligibility but he claims he was just going to run a "poll" to gauge support for it.

A claim that, as I understand the New York Times, has had its day in court and lost. Since it was the Honduran Supreme Court who determined the illegality of what Zelaya was up to, this is no longer a matter of "he said, she said" between him on the one side, and Congress and the military on the other.

Robert Gentel wrote:
this part of it all is an internal affair that I don't think the US should take sides on.

Fair enough. I agree.

Robert Gentel wrote:
If Zelaya's actions were illegal he should have been arrested and tried for them, not exiled.

Arrested by whom? And how would that have been any less of a coup?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 08:50 pm
@Robert Gentel,
The Supreme Court claims that Zelaya, once arrested, agreed to resign in return for for not being prosecuted and being allowed to flee to Costa Rica.

Obviously Zelaya denies this, but if it is true then there is far less reason to consider this a military coup.

There is a significant difference between overthrowing the president and exiling him, and arresting him and cutting a deal whereby he resigns and avoids prosecution.

I don't know which scenario is true, but considering President Obama's strategy of waiting to see how the situation played out in Iran before questioning the election results and condemning the crackdown, I have to wonder why in this case our government was so quick to declare the event a coup and to call for Zelaya's reinstatement.

Our actions are not making us any friends in Honduras and I question whether or not taking a more neutral stance would have damaged our standing with the rest of the Central American nations, and ceded leadership to Chavez and the Castros.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 09:40 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Arrested by whom?


It would likely have been a combination of police and the military, given that their military has been active in law enforcement for years. But I object to the military police so typical in Latin America. Internal law enforcement should be civilian. Military law enforcement makes political coups much easier.

Quote:
And how would that have been any less of a coup?


At least in that it wouldn't have violated the laws of foreign nations but for it to really gain legitimacy they'd really have to figure out a legal instrument for presidential impeachment.

Quite frankly, I think they should have done what was necessary to prevent the referendum and waited out his term (6 more months), rejecting any amendments he sought because they just don't have a codified way to handle this

And it's important to note that there is more to the story than just stopping the referendum. There was what looks to be localized attempts at a communications blackout which makes this whole thing even more dubious and that makes the concern for democratic ideals even more valid. I question what that is for if this is a legitimate process.

Really, to make it less like a coup they could have done pretty much anything but leave the president in another country in his pajamas. That is just not due democratic process for resolving the presidency of a nation.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 09:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The Supreme Court claims that Zelaya, once arrested, agreed to resign in return for for not being prosecuted and being allowed to flee to Costa Rica.

Obviously Zelaya denies this, but if it is true then there is far less reason to consider this a military coup.


Come on, he landed in Costa Rica in pajamas. Even if he did agree to it the legal grounds would be dubious when he's agreeing to it at gunpoint.

Quote:
There is a significant difference between overthrowing the president and exiling him, and arresting him and cutting a deal whereby he resigns and avoids prosecution.


A deal made in a dawn raid while you blackout the media and where you dump the president in another country is bad enough. If he is fit to be deposed he is fit to be tried.

Backroom deals at gunpoint to avoid prosecution aren't a legitimate process either.

Quote:
I don't know which scenario is true, but considering President Obama's strategy of waiting to see how the situation played out in Iran before questioning the election results and condemning the crackdown, I have to wonder why in this case our government was so quick to declare the event a coup and to call for Zelaya's reinstatement.


Because unlike Iran the US has been involved in the events as they unfolded and were trying to head off precisely such a thing.

Quote:
Our actions are not making us any friends in Honduras and I question whether or not taking a more neutral stance would have damaged our standing with the rest of the Central American nations, and ceded leadership to Chavez and the Castros.


We aren't supporting the guy, just saying that democratic processes shouldn't play out this way. And they shouldn't. This is a step backwards for the region.
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Jun, 2009 09:55 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Here is an interesting account on the School of the Americas done by PBS in 1999. Apparently, it was forced out of Panama in 1984, and set up again at Fort Benning, Georgia.


The School of the Americas (SOA) is also known as the WHISC or WHINSEC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas

"General Romeo Vasquez, and many other military leaders repressing the populace received "counterinsurgency" training at the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), formerly known as the infamous "School of the Americas," responsible for training those who perpetrated the greatest atrocities in the Americas."

http://www.alternet.org/world/140966/obama_must_strongly_and_unequivocally_condemn_the_coup_in_honduras/
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 07:11 am
I've just heard a spokeswoman for a Honduran democracy-watch organization, who claims major media sources have really screwed up this story. She pointed to major new services which have incorrectly identified this as happening in Guatemala. She states that Zalaya was acting illegally, and in violation of the constitution, and that the Congress ordered his arrest and deportation, and that has definitely not been a right-wing coup by the military.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 07:34 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Quite frankly, I think they should have done what was necessary to prevent the referendum and waited out his term (6 more months), rejecting any amendments he sought because they just don't have a codified way to handle this


I think you're right, the legislative and judicial branches of the Honduran government jumped the gun on the executive....but who can blame them. The Honduran constitution (like the US), calls for a balance and separation of power and yet recent history has shown the executive branch generally dominating the other two, as is common in Latin America.

The timing was bad, and what was once a relatively unknown Latin American leader is quickly becoming a hero to South Americans thirsty for political stability and constitutional democracy.

As a matter of fact, Zalaya announced today that he is returning to Honduras this week to recover his presidency...this should be interesting.

Kudos to our State Department for supporting a peaceful and constitutional transfer of power.

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:05 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Really, to make it less like a coup they could have done pretty much anything but leave the president in another country in his pajamas. That is just not due democratic process for resolving the presidency of a nation.

I agree. And just to be clear: I'm not saying the military is squeaky clean here. I'm just saying there are no good guys in this picture, and that there probably can't be. Once the president decided to ignore the constitution, a 100% constitutional outcome of this crisis was no longer realistic. What actually happened is by no means the least appropriate among all the not-quite-constitutional outcomes that could have happened. Not to mention the just-plain-unconstitutional outcomes that also could have happened.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:27 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
I've just heard a spokeswoman for a Honduran democracy-watch organization, who claims major media sources have really screwed up this story. She pointed to major new services which have incorrectly identified this as happening in Guatemala. She states that Zalaya was acting illegally, and in violation of the constitution, and that the Congress ordered his arrest and deportation, and that has definitely not been a right-wing coup by the military.


I bet you anything it's Orwellian propaganda bullshit.
 

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