22
   

Should we prosecute torture as a war crime?

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 09:02 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

The people in question have clearly prevented second, third, fourth, and fifth recurrences of **** like 9-11. Dems should only prosecute them if their goal is to start a second civil war.

Not that I buy your premise at all, but I do think we should be prosecuting Yoo, Bybee, Cheney, and probably Ashcroft and Gonzalez instead.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 06:45 pm
@revel,
Quote:
So in your view any previous anti-torture laws we had prior to the attack on 9/11 was automatically thrown out the window and therefore any tactics used in the cause of preventing another attack was legal? We had laws to operate even under extreme circumstances, in fact it is only under extreme circumstances that we even need those laws to keep us civilized even under extreme circumstances having no reason to use torture in other circumstances.


A terrorist is basically the same species of animal as a spy or covert operative operating behind enemy lines. The rules for dealing with such have been the same throughout history, and everywhere on the planet: you get whatever information you can out of them and then you kill them.

The general American treatment of these vermin is thus unparalleled in history. Most of them have put on 20 or 30 lbs and learned salable skills while at Gitmo while being provided with television sets and other leisure-class commodities. All you're really talking about in terms of torture is a half dozen or so top terror bosses being waterboarded and you have to assume that the lunatics who saw Americans heads off have been laughing themselves silly over that and over the idea of anybody calling that torture.

If you want something to conduct a war crime tribunal over my recommendation is still Kosovo, and the Cluinton/Clarke/Albright combine bombing out the civilian infrastructure of Yugoslavia to take Chinagate and the Juanita Broaddrick story off the front pages of American Newspapers.

I'll say it again: Milica Rakic has been declared to be a martyr of the Orthodox church:

http://www.srpska.ru/articles/1499/Milica-Rakic.jpg

If there's any justice in the world, that should be enough to send both Clintons, Madeline Albright, Clarke and everybody else involved in that operation into the history books on the same pages as the dickheads who burned Joan of Arc.


djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 06:58 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

The people in question have clearly prevented second, third, fourth, and fifth recurrences of **** like 9-11. Dems should only prosecute them if their goal is to start a second civil war.


i doubt it, it was 8 years between WTC 93 and 9/11, and a huge increase in the scale of operation, it's conceivable that the next big thing is yet to come

0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  4  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 06:31 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

All you're really talking about in terms of torture is a half dozen or so top terror bosses being waterboarded and you have to assume that the lunatics who saw Americans heads off have been laughing themselves silly over that and over the idea of anybody calling that torture.


Everybody who has ever experienced waterboarding calls it torture and it has been pointed out many times that the Khmer Rouge waterboarded prisoners and we call it torture. And no, that's not all we're talking about. We're talking about threats of execution, threats against the children of the detainees, beatings, stress positions that dislocate shoulders, sleep deprivation, stuffing detainees in boxes so that they can't move for prolonged periods of time, and much, much more. We're talking about at minimum 4 dead detainees and 100 unaccounted for. These people were not picked up here in the US "behind enemy lines".
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 07:08 am
I just hope Obama don't give in to their scare tactics from the likes of Cheney and drop the whole thing. He needs to stick to Holden during this thing and not give in to any in his administration who might be telling him to do the poltically best thing.

Quote:

CIA Documents Provide Little Cover for Cheney Claims

For months, former Vice President Dick Cheney has said that two documents prepared by the CIA, one from 2004 and the other from 2005, would refute critics of the Bush administration’s torture program. He told Fox’s Sean Hannity in April:

“I haven’t talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country,” Cheney said. “I’ve now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was.”

Those documents were obtained today by The Washington Independent and are available here. Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced interrogation” program run by the CIA provided valuable information. In fact, throughout both documents, many passages " though several are incomplete and circumstantial, actually suggest the opposite of Cheney’s contention: that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA’s interrogations.

The first document, issued by the CIA in July 2004 is about the interrogation of 9/11 architect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and whom, the newly released CIA Inspector General report on torture details, had his children’s lives threatened by an interrogator. None of that abuse is referred to in the publicly released version of the July 2004 document. Instead, we learn from the July 2004 document that not only did the man known as “KSM” largely provide intelligence about “historical plots” pulled off from al-Qaeda, a fair amount of the knowledge he imparted to his interrogators came from his “rolodex” " that is, what intelligence experts call “pocket litter,” or the telling documentation found on someone’s person when captured. As well, traditional intelligence work appears to have done wonders " including a fair amount of blundering on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s part:

In response to questions about [al-Qaeda's] efforts to acquire [weapons of mass destruction], [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] revealed that he had met three individuals involved in [al-Qaeda's] program to produce anthrax. He appears to have calculated, incorrectly, that we had this information already, given that one of the three " Yazid Sufaat " had been in foreign custody for several months.

This is a far cry from torturing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into revealing such information. It would be tendentious to believe that the torture didn’t have any impact on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed " he himself said that he lied to interrogators in order to get the torture to stop " but the document itself doesn’t attempt to present a case that the “enhanced interrogation” program was a factor, let alone the determinant factor, in the intelligence bounty the document says he provided.

The second newly released document " a June 2005 overview of information extracted from detainees " is, if anything, more caveated. In making a case that “detainee reporting” was “pivotal for the war against [al-Qaeda],” it says that “detainee reporting is often incomplete or too general to lead directly to arrests; instead, detainees provide critical pieces to the puzzle, which, when combined with other reporting, have helped direct an investigation’s focus and led to the capture of terrorists.” Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the prime example here.

The document also discusses unraveling the network of Indonesian al-Qaeda affiliate Hambali after Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s capture. There are repeated references to the value of “debriefings,” which the 2004 CIA inspector general’s report says are distinct from the “enhanced interrogation techniques” but can be used after they occur. For instance, “Debriefings of mid-level [al-Qaeda] operatives also have reported on specific plots against U.S. interests.” Indeed, in a section titled “Aiding Our Understanding [al-Qaeda],” a listed example is:

Abu Zubaydah’s identification early in his detention of [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] as the mastermind of 11 September and [al-Qaeda's] premier terrorist planner and of ‘Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri as another key [al-Qaeda] operational planner corroborated information [REDACTED].

Those revelations, as former Abu Zubaydah interrogator Ali Soufan has testified, came before Abu Zubaydah was tortured.

Similarly, the document contains accounts of how interrogators performed the traditional interrogation labors of cross-checking detainees’ accounts with each other to determine veracity, and particularly when cross-referenced with “large volumes of documents and computer data”:

For example, lists of names found on the computer [REDACTED] " a key [al-Qaeda] financial operative and facilitator for the 11 September attacks " seized in March 2003 represented [al-Qaeda] members who were to receive funds. Debriefers questioned detainees extensively on the names to determine who they were and how important they were to the organization. The information [REDACTED] helped us to better understand al-Qa’ida’s hierarchy, revenues, and expenditures, [REDACTED] as well as funds that were available to families.

Again, perhaps the blacked-out lines of the memos specifically claim and document that torture and only torture yielded this information. But what’s released within them does not remotely make that case. Cheney’s public account of these documents have conflated the difference between information acquired from detainees, which the documents present, and information acquired from detainees through the enhanced interrogation program, which they don’t.

In a statement, Tom Parker, the policy director of Amnesty International’s American branch, said, “Perhaps unsurprisingly, given Vice President Cheney’s track record, the two CIA memos released today are hardly the slam dunk we had been led to expect. There is little or no supporting evidence in either memo to give substance to the specific claims about impending attacks made by Khaled Shaik Mohammed in highly coercive circumstances.”

"


links at the source
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 05:36 pm
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=26050

As said in the link, the sad part is, this is exactly what our political discourse sounds like today.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 01:15 pm
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

Turns out that the 'suicides' at Gitmo were people we tortured to death, and then covered up. Depressing but not surprising.

Quote:
A separate report, the result of an “informal investigation” initiated by Admiral Harris, found that standard operating procedures were violated that night but concluded that disciplinary action was not warranted because of the “generally permissive environment” of the cell block and the numerous “concessions” that had been made with regard to the prisoners’ comfort, which “concessions” had resulted in a “general confusion by the guard and the JDG staff over many of the rules that applied to the guard force’s handling of the detainees.” According to Harris, even had standard operating procedures been followed, “it is possible that the detainees could have successfully committed suicide anyway.”

This is the official story, adopted by NCIS and Guantánamo command and reiterated by the Justice Department in formal pleadings, by the Defense Department in briefings and press releases, and by the State Department. Now four members of the Military Intelligence unit assigned to guard Camp Delta, including a decorated non-commissioned Army officer who was on duty as sergeant of the guard the night of June 9"10, have furnished an account dramatically at odds with the NCIS report"a report for which they were neither interviewed nor approached.

All four soldiers say they were ordered by their commanding officer not to speak out, and all four soldiers provide evidence that authorities initiated a cover-up within hours of the prisoners’ deaths. Army Staff Sergeant Joseph Hickman and men under his supervision have disclosed evidence in interviews with Harper’s Magazine that strongly suggests that the three prisoners who died on June 9 had been transported to another location prior to their deaths. The guards’ accounts also reveal the existence of a previously unreported black site at Guantánamo where the deaths, or at least the events that led directly to the deaths, most likely occurred.


It's very difficult to see how investigations and prosecutions of those who ordered and carried out these murders cannot take place.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 09/15/2019 at 10:41:05