22
   

Should we prosecute torture as a war crime?

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:11 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
True, but I, and others most likely, would lend more weight to their interpretation then most others. Especially people hell bent on hating anything that Bush or any Republican would do or say.

I don't doubt that you would give added weight to the interpretations made by the guys who were employed by the Bush administration to advise the Bush administration and who ended up telling the Bush administration it was free to do exactly what the Bush administration wanted to do. After all, you've also expressed the opinion that the prisoners in Guantanamo must be terrorists because they wouldn't be imprisoned at Guantanamo if they weren't terrorists.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:12 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Being wrong about WMD's in Iaq is not lying about WMD's in Iraq.

But quoting a foreign intelligence service after American intelligence services tell you that the information is wrong kinda sounds like lying to me.


eh? What's this all about? Back up your accusation.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:12 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Only in the feverish imaginings of the devout liberals.

Whereas Bush apologists are firmly grounded in reality, eh?


In this case, yes.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:13 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

My recollection is also that even if you consult a lawyer as to something's legality, it does not shield you from prosecution if the lawyer turns out to be wrong.


Seems to be a good shield thus far considering the legal actions in regard to the various cases brought forth. Refresh my memory here, how many have gone to trial so far?

Perhaps one of our legal experts will speak to this point. I'm speaking of a general legal principal, not as it has been specifically applied to the Bush administration.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:13 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
True, but I, and others most likely, would lend more weight to their interpretation then most others. Especially people hell bent on hating anything that Bush or any Republican would do or say.

I don't doubt that you would give added weight to the interpretations made by the guys who were employed by the Bush administration to advise the Bush administration and who ended up telling the Bush administration it was free to do exactly what the Bush administration wanted to do. After all, you've also expressed the opinion that the prisoners in Guantanamo must be terrorists because they wouldn't be imprisoned at Guantanamo if they weren't terrorists.


I don't recall using those exact words. Please refresh my memory.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:20 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
I don't recall using those exact words. Please refresh my memory.

Considering that the search function on A2K, which was once very good, is now awful, I have decided to take the Foxfyre approach to requests about previous posts and just say that, if you're so interested, you should search for it yourself. In any event, I didn't claim to be quoting your exact words -- I assume, therefore, that I got the gist of your position correct.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:23 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Being wrong about WMD's in Iaq is not lying about WMD's in Iraq.

But quoting a foreign intelligence service after American intelligence services tell you that the information is wrong kinda sounds like lying to me.


eh? What's this all about? Back up your accusation.

Good lord. Do you live under a rock? Do you only listen to conservative talk radio?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries

Quote:
In his January 2003 State of the Union speech, U.S. President George W. Bush said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

...

According to The Washington Post, when occupying troops found no evidence of a current nuclear program, the statement and how it came to be in the speech became a focus for critics in Washington and foreign capitals to press the case that the White House manipulated facts to take the United States to war. The Post reported, "Dozens of interviews with current and former intelligence officials and policymakers in the United States, Britain, France and Italy show that the Bush administration disregarded key information available at the time showing that the Iraq-Niger claim was highly questionable." [6] With the release of the 2002 NIE report, the Bush administration was criticized for including the statement in the State of the Union despite CIA and State Department reports questioning its veracity

...

In early October 2002, George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley to ask him to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on October 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0720-09.htm

Quote:
...

Mr. Bush portrayed the United States as under an imminent threat from Iraq. In 16 words, he passed along this chilling information: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

...

Today, those 16 words haunt the administration. They are the best-remembered flourish in a portrait of Iraq that today seems unrecognizable. They are a leading rationale for a war that has resulted in the death of 224 Americans. And they are either unsubstantiated or based on a lie.

....



Bottom line: American intelligence services discounted the Iraq/Niger uranium deal. British intelligence believed it. Bush chose to quote the British, even though he had been informed multiple times of the views of the American intelligence services.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:31 am
@FreeDuck,
Quote:
So, now that it's pretty clear that torture was authorized at the highest levels and it was more than a few bad apples, and since we've prosecuted some of those "bad apples" for essentially following orders, should we now prosecute the people who authorized torture? If we don't prosecute, are other countries justified in prosecuting them in international courts?


You're seriously messed up. What you're talking about is three top terror bosses getting waterboarded. You really want something to set up a war-crimes tribunal over? I mean the first thing which would come to my mind at least would be SlicKKK KKKlintler bombing Yugoslavia for eighty days and nights to take Chinagate and that Juanita Broaddrick rape accusation off the front pages of American newspapers.

http://www.andrijailic.com/03-nato-bombardovanje/serb-bomb-027.jpg

http://members.tripod.com/YUModelClub/war_over_yugoslav/slike/tank1.jpg

http://www.usip.org/training/online/analysis/images/content/ap_3565610.jpg

http://www.balkanfile.com/images/posts/mar2009/uscebombing.jpg

http://www.dailynews.rs/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/grdelica-v-300x120.jpg

You want to set up a tribunal to try both KKKlintlers, Wesley Clarke, Mad-dog Albright, George Soros and the rest of the gang for war crimes?? I mean it makes perfect sense to me and I'm all for it.

http://www.counterpunch.org/dead.html

Quote:
Who NATO Killed

Since the Nato airstrikes began on March 24 Serb officials say more than 2,000 civilians have been killed and more than 7,500 wounded. Nato has owned up to bombing raids and missile attacks that have killed 460 civilians, according to a tally by Agence France-Presse. By all accounts, the bombing was indiscriminate, killing farmers, suburbanites, city dwellers, factory workers, reporters, diplomats, people in cars, busses and trains, hospital patients, the elderly and children. Indeed, by our count, Nato bombing raids have killed more than 200 children. Hundreds more will almost certainly perish in the coming months, through environmental factors, such as poisoned water supplies and lack of electrical power to run vital hospital equipment. The following list of civilian casualties is far from comprehensive. We compiled it from daily reports by the Yugoslav Foreign Ministry and wire services, including Agence France Presse, Reuters and AP.

Aleksinac
Five Nato missiles hit Aleksinac, a small mining community, on April 6. Seventeen civilians, taking shelter in a basement of a house, were all killed. Although there is no military presence in the residential area that was bombed, more than 400 homes were destroyed.

Ariljaca
Nato missiles hit Ariljaca, a small town outside Pristina, on April 28, killing two and injuring a dozen civilians.

Belgrade
Near midnight on June 1, 14 missiles destroyed a block of houses in a suburb of Belgrade killing 5 and injuring 20.

Around 1 a.m. on May 20, Nato cluster bombs hit "Dragisa Misovic" hospital in downtown Belgrade. The neurological ward, the maternity ward, the gynecological ward and the children's ward for lung diseases were destroyed. Nato later admitted that one of the laser guided bombs overshot its target by about 1,500 feet (460 meters).

During the attack 4 women were in active labor. A woman who, at the time of the attack, was having a Caesarean section, was also injured. She was transferred to the basement where her baby was finally delivered! In the attack 4 patients were killed, and several women in labor were wounded.
On May 8, Nato airstrikes hit the Chinese Embassy, destroying half of the building. According to the Chinese Government there were about 30 people in the building at the moment of the attack. Four Chinese citizens were killed and at least 20 injured.

On Friday, April 23, around 2 a.m., the building of the Serbian National Broadcasting Network was destroyed by Nato air strikes. The building is in the very center of Belgrade, a few hundred feet from a children's theater, St. Marko's Church, the City Childrens Center and the local market. More than 20 civilian employees of the TV station were killed.

On April 16, Milica Rakic, a three-year-old girl, was killed in the Nato attack on Batajnica, a residential suburb of Belgrade.

The administrative center of the Ministry of Internal Affairs was hit several times. The building is in the very center of Belgrade, near the city hospital, which has the largest delivery ward in Belgrade. Several civilians, who were passing by the building at the time of the attack, were killed.

On April 13, a cluster bomb hit the Veterans Army Hospital in downtown Belgrade, injuring sixteen patients.

Bor
Six persons were wounded when Nato hit the electricity relay station at a mine site in Basin Bor on May 15.

Cacak
On May 5, Nato forces destroyed the Sloboda plant, the largest factory in Cacak. This factory produced domestic appliances and employed 5,000 workers. A residential area near the factory was also destroyed. Two persons were killed, one of them was a 74-year-old woman. Seven were injured.

Cuprija
On June 1, 2 civilians were killed and 9 wounded when Nato bombs destroyed more than 100 houses in the center of this small town.

Djakovica
On April 21 70 civilians died and 20 were injured in a refugee camp near Djakovica, home for more than 500 people evicted from Krajina (Croatia). The houses were completely destroyed. Just four years ago, more than 400,000 civilian Serbs were ethnically cleansed from the Krajina region by the Croatian government of Franjo Tudjman. There were 53 bomb craters at the site.

On April 19, seven missiles hit the same site, killing five and wounding 16.

Gnjilane
Nato attacked Gnjilane a number of times in May. There were dozens of civilian casualties. The City Hospital was hit and badly damaged.

Grdelica
Nato hit an international train, on regular service from Belgrade to Thessaloniki (Greece), in the vicinity of Leskovac on Monday, April 12. Sixty passengers were killed, including a 10 year-old child. More than 30 passengers were wounded. All casualties were civilians.

Gucevo
On April 23, Nato planes attacked this mountain ski resort, seriously injuring the manager of the complex.

Istok
On May 21, a prison in Istok was hit with two missiles, killing one man and seriously injuring one woman. The attack was repeated at 9:20 a.m. with ten missiles. The econd attack left nine people dead, including the deputy governor. At least 10 people were injured. Since then, Nato has bombed this prison several times. By June 1, the death toll had risen to 100..

Jagodina
On May 25, Nato attacked this agricultural village with five missiles. One struck a greenhouse killing a farmer and wounding two workers.

Korisa
On the night of May 13, six Nato missiles struck a farm in the rural village of Korisa in Kosovo. In this attack, 87 Kosovo Albanians died. Kosovo Albanian Fehmi Ahmeta told Reuters that seven members of his family were killed. Journalists who visited the site described it as full of bodies, some of them still burning at the time of their visit. One journalist said said there was no trace of Nato's claim of a Serb military presence.

Kosare
On May 22, Nato was forced to admit that it had mistakenly bombed a KLA base in the border town of Kosare. KLA spokesmen said that 7 were killed and 15 wounded in the attack.

Kragujevac
Workers employed at the Zastava factory in Kragujevac used their bodies to "protect" the factory, a fact that was well known to Nato war planners. 120 workers were injured in an April 10 Nato assault on the factory. The Zastava automobile factory supported more than 50 percent of the citizens living in the Kragujevac area.

Kraljevo
On June 1, seven people were injured, three of them children, when four missiles hit the residential area of Sovljak.

Throughout May, Nato repeatedly targeted the town of Kraljevo, destroying its school and a hospital clinic. More than 20 civilians have been injured. A message on one of the bomb casings found at Kraljevo read, "Do You Still Want to Be a Serb Now?"

On April 29, one person was killed and 8 injured when a missile struck a public bus on the Goadcica Road.

Krusevac
Nato forces destroyed the "14th October" factory of construction machinery on April 11. A dozen workers were injured. The plant, which employed 6,000 workers, was demolished.

Kursumlija
On May 29, cluster bombs hit the Markovici housing complex, killing one and wounding two.

In two Nato attacks on Kursumlija in early May, 13 citizens were killed and more than 20 were injured.

On April 12, two missiles struck a residential area killing 6 and injuring 23. Among the dead: 11 month-old Bjonana Tosovic and her father Boris.

Labane
On June 1, two people were killed and one critically injured when Nato planes attacked the Cenovacki Bridge over the Jablanica River.

Lipljan
On April 26, Arla Lujic, a six year-old girl, was killed and her brother and sister seriously injured by a Nato cluster bomb. Her father, Sacir Lujic, said, "We were at home in the center of the village and the children were playing in the yard when we heard a powerful blast. We didn't know if it was a Nato plane that fell down or a bomb. Children are not guilty at all."

Luzane
May 1, Nato planes attacked a bridge in Luzane (12 miles from Pristina), hitting the "Nis Express" bus on its regular service linking Nis and Pristina. There were about 70 passengers on the bus. A missile hit the bus directly and split it in two. One half remained on the bridge burning for an hour, while the other half plunged into the valley. Bodies were scattered over a wide area. Forty-seven people were killed.

They attacked again 25 minutes later, when an ambulance vehicle was damaged and one medical doctor was seriously wounded in the head. One of the Luzane inhabitants, who eyewitnessed the attack, said the bus was filled with civilians, mostly old people and children and that he could hear them crying for help from the bus wreckage after the attack.

Merdare
Nato planes dropped cluster bombs on the home of the Tosic family, in the small village of Merdare, located between Kursumlija and Podujevo. An eleven-month-old baby girl was among the Merdare victims. Her mother, in the ninth month of pregnancy, was injured. The father was killed.

Murino
On May 1, the small Montenegrin village of Murino was bombed with 10 missiles. Orhan Redzepagic, the mayor of the remote mountain commune of Plav, said that four civilians were killed including two young girls, refugees from Pristina, who were hit directly and blown into pieces. The other two dead were a man and a woman. Eight people suffered injuries.

Nis
On June 1, Dusan Mancic and his wife Vukosava were killed and their three grandchildren were injured when their house was destroyed by Nato missiles.

On May 7, 1999, 15 people were killed and 70 injured when cluster bombs fell on the town market.

On April 19 one civilian was killed and 11 wounded went Nato missiles destroyed 10 homes in the Bujuriska housing complex.

Novi Sad
Nato attacked an oil refinery in Novi Sad more than 10 times. A thick cloud of benzene-laden smoke hangs over the city and water from the public water supply is no longer drinkable.

Several residential areas in the suburbs of Novi Sad were demolished. As of June 1 there are more than 100 seriously wounded civilians in Novi Sad.

Novi Pazar
On May 31, six Nato cluster bombs hit a four-storey apartment complex in the center of town killing 23 and injuring 20.

On April 23, four people were injured when a Nato missile struck a Red Cross soup kitchen. Later that same day, one person was killed and two injured when missiles hit the Novi Pazar medical center, which housed one of Europe's largest treatment facilities for muscular dystrophy.

Novi Varos
Four workers were seriously wounded on April 18 when two Nato bombs struck a hydroelectric plant on the Bistrica River.

Pancevo
One May 1, Nato missiles destroyed a chemical plant which produces fertilizers. Seven workers were injured. The entire residential quarter near the factory was evacuated because of the danger of intoxication by poisonous gases released due to the damage inflicted to the building and the fire that consequently broke out.

Nato forces have repeadedly hit the power plant in the Pancevo petroleum refinery complex, which supplied electricity and gas. The refinery was attacked on several more occasions. A huge amount of toxic material was spilled into the Danube River, which flows all the way from Germany to the Black Sea.

An April 3 strike on the plant killed two people and injured 17.

Paracin
On May 12, a dozen houses in Paracin were destroyed, one person was killed and five injured.

Pristina
On May 30, one person was killed and six wounded when missiles destroyed their cars at the entrance tunnel outside Pristina.

Five Nato cluster bombs destroyed a largely residential area of Pristina called Grinija, killing Branko Gudzic, the head of technical services for the Provincial Executive Council of Kosovo. Two of his colleagues were seriously wounded.

On April 12, a missile struck a Ford Escort on the Pristina-Polje Road, killing two and seriously injuring one.

On April 9, Nato destroyed a residential area in downtown Pristina, killing five members of the Gasi family as they hid in the basement of their house. Nato admitted it may have hit houses when its missiles overshot the Pristina telephone exchange.

Prizren-Djakovica
In the early afternoon hours on April 14, 1999, a convoy of Albanian refugees was bombed four times by Nato planes. The refugees were moving down Prizren-Djakovica road, mostly on foot, or in tractor trailers. At least 75 people were killed, 100 wounded. All of the victims were Albanians, mostly children, women and elderly people. Since the attack was carried out in daylight, considering that the convoy consisted mostly of agricultural vehicles and civilian cars, and that the attack was repeated four times with long periods of time between them, possibility of this attack being accidental is very unlikely.

Sabac
On May 25 Nato planes struck this small town with five cluster bombs, destroying a school and an apartment complex. One person died and four were wounded in the attack.

Savine Vode
On May 3, , during the Nato attack on Savine Vode a civilian bus on the Djakovica-Podgorica Road was hit. At least 20 persons were killed, 43 were injured (23 suffered serious injuries). There were large numbers of women and children among the victims. Rescue teams and ambulance cars weren't able to help the victims due to the prolonged attack.

Sremska Mitrovica
On June 1, 200 homes were obliterated by four cluster bombs, killing five civilians and hurting more than a dozen.

On May 2 Nato bombs destroyed residential areas in the town of Sremska Mitrovica killing four and injuring 10.

Subotica
On Friday, April 16, Nato planes attacked the city of Subotica for the first time. Subotica lies on the border with Hungary, over 350 miles from Kosovo. About 70 percent of Subotica's population are Hungarian. A entire block in the residential quarter of the city was demolished by Nato planes. All destroyed buildings were civilian. Two died in the attack and 15 were wounded.

Surdulica
On May 30, 20 patients in a sanitarium and retirement home complex where killed when the buildings were destroyed by five Nato missiles.

Two Nato missiles hit civilian structures in the center of Surdulica on April 27 between 12 and 12:30 p.m. A CNN reporter counted 16 civilian bodies at the scene;11 of the victims were children between 5 and 12 years of age. Three days after the attack bodies were still being taken out of the smoldering ruins.

Trstenik
On April 29, Nato missiles attacked a bridge in Trstenik, killing a woman who was crossing the bridge on her bike and wounding 17 others.

Urosevac
A residential suburb of Urosevac was demolished in a Nato attack. Six people were killed.

Uzice
On May 30, missiles struck near the post office in downtown Uzice for the fifth time, killing two civilians.

Vajevo
The June 1 airstrike on Vajevo marked the thirty-first time Nato planes had attacked this manufacturing center. A dozen fatalities have resulted from the more than 200 missiles that have hit the city and the outlaying Krusik factory.

On May 6, several buildings in the densely populated residential area of Valjevo were damaged in a Nato strike. Among them are: the City Hospital, an agriculture secondary school, a railway station and several apartment buildings. Ten people were wounded in the strike.

Varvarin
Nato planes took out a bridge in this central Serbian city, killing 11 people who were crossing in their cars when the missiles hit.

Vranje
On June 1, ten civilians were seriouly wounded when four bombs exploded in the historical district of this town.

On May 15, a residential suburb was badly damaged as a result of Nato attacks. Two people were killed while working in the field near the town. Irena, a 16-year-old girl, died from a skull fracture caused by shrapnel from a Nato missile. Her father was seriously injured. An older woman died in the assault as well.

On April 13, two people were killed, including 14 year-old Milica Stojanovic, and one person was critically wounded when missiles hit a residential suburb of Vranje called Pavjovac.


Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:33 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

dlowan wrote:

Interesting that illegal invasions, torture, kidnap don't raise a Starr chamber.

Almost enough to maske even Finn think, you'd think.

But no.


Name one crime that George Bush committed. State which law he violated.


Bush authorized the use of torture in violation of US law; he authorized spying on Americans with no warrant in violation of the 4th amendment. His administration lied us into a war in Iraq, which could be considered treason.

Cycloptichorn

There is a reason why I asked dlowan to state one violation. Sometimes people try to dilute an argument with many separate questions to cloud an invalid defense of their thesis. I'll arbitrarily pick one alleged crime from your list. The one most consistent with this thread is the authorization of torture. When and in what law or written policy did Mr. Bush authorize torture?


Do you contend that the buck does not, in fact, start at the top?

We know for a fact that the Bush WH authorized torture, though they used the false title 'enhanced interrogation' so they would not have to actually write out the words 'torture.' Do you contend that the Bush WH did not authorize this?

Cycloptichorn

One doesn't do criminal prosecutions based on "the buck stops." One prosecutes people criminally when there is legally admissible evidence that they have broken a law which is actually on the books. So, since you seem to be defending the position that Mr. Bush has committed legally prosecutable offenses, tell me when and in what written law he authorized torture and which law this specific authorization violates.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:34 am
@gungasnake,
"But, but, but.... Clinton!"














Don't you ever get tired of being ridiculed for that?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:39 am
@DrewDad,
Ooohhhh! I see what you are saying. You think that THAT is the reason the Bush administration gave for going to war with Iraq... Yeah, that would make sense.

Odd that I can't seem to find that in the Authorization for use of Military force against Iraq resolution of 2002. Don't you find that odd? I mean, afterall, they lied us into war, right? Can you show me in that document, which outlines the specific reasons for war with Iraq, where the lies are?

Wouldn't it be more reasonable that the Intelligence community, Congress, the Bush administration, several other foreign intelligence organizations, the Clinton administration and several others were wrongly led to believe that WMD's existed based on Hussein's actions in regards to UN weapons inspections? Has so much time passed that memories of Hussein have been forgotten? Once again we see that the left, in their disgust of all things Bush, continue to beat the wrong drum.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:42 am
@McGentrix,
Doesn't change the fact that he deliberately lied. Nice attempt at deflection, though.

Well... not really.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:42 am
@joefromchicago,
Well, you are accusing me of saying something that I do not believe, I do not recall saying and I have serious misgivings in believing. So, instead, I will just say that you are wrong. In that regard, you do not have the gist of my position at all. Perhaps you are thinking of something someone else said.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:45 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that he deliberately lied. Nice attempt at deflection, though.

Well... not really.


Yeah, Presidents seem to do that from time to time. Doesn't change the fact that the allegation is that Bush lied us into war which is patently false.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:50 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that he deliberately lied. Nice attempt at deflection, though.

Well... not really.


Yeah, Presidents seem to do that from time to time. Doesn't change the fact that the allegation is that Bush lied us into war which is patently false.


Actually, it is not patently false, as Bush and his administration:

- Lied
- Then used those lies to build the case for war
- Then took us to war based on those lies
- The abandoned them when they turned out to be lies

That's what we call 'true,' not 'perfectly false.' You admit that Bush lied in the last post but refuse to follow that to the logical conclusion, in no small part because it makes you look like a dumbass for supporting him wholeheartedly for years, which you most certainly did do.

This is about psychological self-defense on the part of you Conservatives more than anything else. The cognitive dissonance that must exist inside your heads is staggering.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 08:52 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

dlowan wrote:

Interesting that illegal invasions, torture, kidnap don't raise a Starr chamber.

Almost enough to maske even Finn think, you'd think.

But no.


Name one crime that George Bush committed. State which law he violated.


Bush authorized the use of torture in violation of US law; he authorized spying on Americans with no warrant in violation of the 4th amendment. His administration lied us into a war in Iraq, which could be considered treason.

Cycloptichorn

There is a reason why I asked dlowan to state one violation. Sometimes people try to dilute an argument with many separate questions to cloud an invalid defense of their thesis. I'll arbitrarily pick one alleged crime from your list. The one most consistent with this thread is the authorization of torture. When and in what law or written policy did Mr. Bush authorize torture?


Do you contend that the buck does not, in fact, start at the top?

We know for a fact that the Bush WH authorized torture, though they used the false title 'enhanced interrogation' so they would not have to actually write out the words 'torture.' Do you contend that the Bush WH did not authorize this?

Cycloptichorn

One doesn't do criminal prosecutions based on "the buck stops." One prosecutes people criminally when there is legally admissible evidence that they have broken a law which is actually on the books. So, since you seem to be defending the position that Mr. Bush has committed legally prosecutable offenses, tell me when and in what written law he authorized torture and which law this specific authorization violates.


No - first you answer the question. Did the Bush admin authorize torture (and don't blow smoke up my ass with the 'enhanced interrogation' bullshit), or not? A simple yes or no will do.

I ask, because A) it has been admitted that they did so, and B) there is a significant amount of evidence that they did so FAR more often than was admitted. So if you can't recognize a basic point of reality, you can't understand how they broke the law.

Cycloptichorn
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 09:17 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Actually, it is not patently false, as Bush and his administration:

- Lied
- Then used those lies to build the case for war
- Then took us to war based on those lies
- The abandoned them when they turned out to be lies

That's what we call 'true,' not 'perfectly false.' You admit that Bush lied in the last post but refuse to follow that to the logical conclusion, in no small part because it makes you look like a dumbass for supporting him wholeheartedly for years, which you most certainly did do.

This is about psychological self-defense on the part of you Conservatives more than anything else. The cognitive dissonance that must exist inside your heads is staggering.

Cycloptichorn


Nonsense. You are trying to make a case that Bush lied , therefore everything Bush said must also be a lie. There is probably some Latin term for that.

You want to believe so desperately that Bush lied. you look for anything that will support your cause because that is your nature. Most haters and bigots will make any excuse at all for their hatred and bigotry. You are no exception.

Back up your case or STFU.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 09:23 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

dlowan wrote:

Interesting that illegal invasions, torture, kidnap don't raise a Starr chamber.

Almost enough to maske even Finn think, you'd think.

But no.


Name one crime that George Bush committed. State which law he violated.


Bush authorized the use of torture in violation of US law; he authorized spying on Americans with no warrant in violation of the 4th amendment. His administration lied us into a war in Iraq, which could be considered treason.

Cycloptichorn

There is a reason why I asked dlowan to state one violation. Sometimes people try to dilute an argument with many separate questions to cloud an invalid defense of their thesis. I'll arbitrarily pick one alleged crime from your list. The one most consistent with this thread is the authorization of torture. When and in what law or written policy did Mr. Bush authorize torture?


Do you contend that the buck does not, in fact, start at the top?

We know for a fact that the Bush WH authorized torture, though they used the false title 'enhanced interrogation' so they would not have to actually write out the words 'torture.' Do you contend that the Bush WH did not authorize this?

Cycloptichorn

One doesn't do criminal prosecutions based on "the buck stops." One prosecutes people criminally when there is legally admissible evidence that they have broken a law which is actually on the books. So, since you seem to be defending the position that Mr. Bush has committed legally prosecutable offenses, tell me when and in what written law he authorized torture and which law this specific authorization violates.


No - first you answer the question. Did the Bush admin authorize torture (and don't blow smoke up my ass with the 'enhanced interrogation' bullshit), or not? A simple yes or no will do.

I ask, because A) it has been admitted that they did so, and B) there is a significant amount of evidence that they did so FAR more often than was admitted. So if you can't recognize a basic point of reality, you can't understand how they broke the law.

Cycloptichorn

Since you claim that George Bush broke the law, it is incumbent on you to support your own claim by stating in legal terms when and how.

It's no surprise to me that the people who have been saying this stuff since the accusations about his National Guard service don't want to give any specifics. However, I have no objection to answering, if you follow by backing telling me exactly when and how Mr. Bush authorized torture and which law he broke. Here it is:

I believe that torture was authorized by senior persons in government agencies, but I doubt that Mr. Bush knowingly authorized anything that I would consider torture.

In order for an act to be prosecutable, you also need to state which law it violates.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 09:28 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that he deliberately lied. Nice attempt at deflection, though.

Well... not really.


Bush's "16 Words" on Iraq & Uranium: He May Have Been Wrong But He Wasn't Lying

Quote:
Summary
The famous “16 words” in President Bush’s Jan. 28, 2003 State of the Union address turn out to have a basis in fact after all, according to two recently released investigations in the US and Britain.

Bush said then, “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .” Some of his critics called that a lie, but the new evidence shows Bush had reason to say what he did.

* A British intelligence review released July 14 calls Bush’s 16 words “well founded.”
* A separate report by the US Senate Intelligence Committee said July 7 that the US also had similar information from “a number of intelligence reports,” a fact that was classified at the time Bush spoke.
* Ironically, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who later called Bush’s 16 words a “lie”, supplied information that the Central Intelligence Agency took as confirmation that Iraq may indeed have been seeking uranium from Niger.
* Both the US and British investigations make clear that some forged Italian documents, exposed as fakes soon after Bush spoke, were not the basis for the British intelligence Bush cited, or the CIA's conclusion that Iraq was trying to get uranium.

None of the new information suggests Iraq ever nailed down a deal to buy uranium, and the Senate report makes clear that US intelligence analysts have come to doubt whether Iraq was even trying to buy the stuff. In fact, both the White House and the CIA long ago conceded that the 16 words shouldn’t have been part of Bush’s speech.

But what he said " that Iraq sought uranium " is just what both British and US intelligence were telling him at the time. So Bush may indeed have been misinformed, but that's not the same as lying.


Huh. I guess that goes back to repeating a lie long enough, you will eventually believe it...
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 09:29 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:


I believe that torture was authorized by senior persons in government agencies, but I doubt that Mr. Bush knowingly authorized anything that I would consider torture.

In order for an act to be prosecutable, you also need to state which law it violates.


This is a good start. Who in the Bush admin authorized this, if it wasn't Bush himself? Why didn't the president know about this?

As for the laws,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

http://www.amnestyusa.org/war-on-terror/reports-statements-and-issue-briefs/torture-and-the-law/page.do?id=1107981

The acts which make up torture are all clearly illegal, and we are signatories to anti-torture international laws; those laws legally bind us from engaging in torture.

Cycloptichorn
 

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