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AFGHANISTAN - A LESSON 200 YEARS OLD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2010 10:16 pm
@failures art,
OUr leaders never learn the lesson; Iraq's war has been on-going for over a thousand years, and one of our pepsqueek presidents tries to bring "democracy" to their land. Who asked? Why are we spending our military and treasure on these stupid wars?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2010 10:31 pm
The proposal is withdrawal by 2014.
Four more years to go, at least.
Sigh.:


Quote:
Karzai to address Nato over Afghan troop withdrawal
20 November 2010 Last updated at 03:08 GMT

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50076000/jpg/_50076581_010675037-1.jpg
Mr Karzai believes Afghanistan will be ready to handle security by the end of 2014

Afghan President Hamid Karzai is preparing to meet Nato leaders in Lisbon for talks on withdrawing troops from his country by the end of 2014.

A spokesman for Mr Karzai said he and Nato shared the "same strategic interests" but that there were many issues still to be worked out.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev is also due to address the summit.

On Friday, the military alliance agreed to develop a joint missile defence shield covering all member states.

The Portugal summit also backed the swift ratification of the Start treaty between the US and Russia, aimed at cutting the nuclear weapon stockpiles of both sides.

Nato's International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) has some 130,000 soldiers based in Afghanistan, most of them from the US.

US President Barack Obama said the Isaf mission was "moving to a new phase", and that the target for handing over the overall responsibility for security to the Afghans was still 2014.


Some Nato members have expressed concerns that Afghanistan may not be ready to manage its own security by that time, but Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen has said the goal is "realistic".

Mr Rasmussen said there would still be a role for Isaf troops in the country in 2015 and onwards, but that would largely be in training Afghan forces.
'Clear destination'

Mr Karzai's spokesman and advisor, Ashraf Ghani, said Nato and Kabul had "the same strategic objectives" for the withdrawal - they now needed "to work out a lot of implementation issues" and set milestones for the intervening years. ...<cont>


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11802121
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2010 10:54 pm
@msolga,
msolga, It's a losing battle; as long as we're there to kill innocent folks in their country is the very reason the Taliban will never run out of recruits and hatred for America. They see us as occupiers sticking our nose into their countries affairs.

Where do we get involved after Afghanistan?
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2010 11:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Where do we get involved after Afghanistan?

Let's not even joke CI...

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 04:21 pm
@edgarblythe,

Edgar

I don't know whether or not the approach of Delta Force strikes would work (it's very like the approach Biden advocated), but at least you acknowledge and addressed a real problem, instead of taking the ridiculously illogical line that the only reason the Islamists want to destroy us is because we are occupying their countries.

Thanks
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 04:27 pm
@failures art,
Goodness how Butch you can get when you go all scoldy Diest!

Afghanistan was a launching pad for terrorist attacks whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

What do your propose we do if and when it goes back to being one?

failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 04:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
If it becomes a launch pad, we work with the Afghanistan government to help them with the problem.

Afghanistan is more of a launch pad since we've been there than it was prior to us being there. Whether you have the ability to acknowledge that, is yet to be demonstrated.

A
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T
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 06:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Many of us who want to end the occupation acknowledge that terrorists will continue to attack us. I am about finding ways to combat this. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I want us to go after some real solutions.
hamburgboy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 07:12 pm
@msolga,
ms. olga :
NATO today announced that 2014 would NOT be be the end 0f NATO involvement !
... ... stay tuned ... ...
hbg
hamburgboy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 07:25 pm
@hamburgboy,
so even AFTER 2014 there might be U.S. and NATO troops in afghanistan ... ... ...

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/11/nato_afghan.html

Quote:
NATO Admits Troops Will Likely Remain in Afghanistan After 2014

As expected, at today's summit in Lisbon, Afghanistan and NATO agreed to the goal of shifting security responsibility to the Afghan government by the end of 2014, but they acknowledged that allied troops would remain in the country long after that year.

President Obama said: "My goal is to make sure that, by 2014, we have transitioned, Afghans are in the lead, and it is a goal to make sure that we are not still engaged in combat operations of the sort that we're involved with now. Certainly, our footprint will have been significantly reduced. But beyond that, you know, it's hard to anticipate exactly what is going to be necessary."

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 07:35 pm
@hamburgboy,
hbg, They're only correcting their previous mistake of announcing their flight from Afghanistan, because they just realized they gave the Taliban a time-frame by which they can wait it out.
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 07:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
c.i. :
the afghans/talibans have all the time in the world ... they will wait past 2014 .
" time " is what they have plenty of , i believe .
hbg

FATHER TIME
 http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/3600/3615/father-time_1_lg.gif
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 07:50 pm
@hamburgboy,
True; and that's what the tribes in Iraq did until the US removed our "fighting" troops.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 09:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Afghanistan was a launching pad for terrorist attacks whether you care to acknowledge it or not.


The USA is, by far, the largest launching pad for terrorist activities that the world has ever known, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. The invasion of Afghanistan, just like Iraq, was a war crime.

Quote:

Obama's Af-Pak War is Illegal

President Obama accepted the Nobel Peace Prize nine days after he announced he would send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan. His escalation of that war is not what the Nobel committee envisioned when it sought to encourage him to make peace, not war.

In 1945, in the wake of two wars that claimed millions of lives, the nations of the world created the United Nations system to “save succeeding generations from the scourge of war.” The UN Charter is based on the principles of international peace and security as well as the protection of human rights. But the United States, one of the founding members of the UN, has often flouted the commands of the charter, which is part of US law under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution.

Although the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was as illegal as the invasion of Iraq, many Americans saw it as a justifiable response to the attacks of September 11, 2001. The cover of Time magazine called it "The Right War." Obama campaigned on ending the Iraq war but escalating the war in Afghanistan. But a majority of Americans now oppose that war as well.

The UN Charter provides that all member states must settle their international disputes by peaceful means, and no nation can use military force except in self-defense or when authorized by the Security Council. After the 9/11 attacks, the council passed two resolutions, neither of which authorized the use of military force in Afghanistan.

“Operation Enduring Freedom” was not legitimate self-defense under the charter because the 9/11 attacks were crimes against humanity, not “armed attacks” by another country. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. In fact, 15 of the 19 hijackers hailed from Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, there was not an imminent threat of an armed attack on the United States after 9/11, or President Bush would not have waited three weeks before initiating his October 2001 bombing campaign. The necessity for self-defense must be “instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation.” This classic principle of self-defense in international law has been affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and the UN General Assembly.

Bush's justification for attacking Afghanistan was that it was harboring Osama bin Laden and training terrorists, even though bin Laden did not claim responsibility for the 9/11 attacks until 2004. After Bush demanded that the Taliban turn over bin Laden to the United States, the Taliban’s ambassador to Pakistan said his government wanted proof that bin Laden was involved in the 9/11 attacks before deciding whether to extradite him, according to the Washington Post. That proof was not forthcoming, the Taliban did not deliver bin Laden, and Bush began bombing Afghanistan.

Bush’s rationale for attacking Afghanistan was spurious. Iranians could have made the same argument to attack the United States after they overthrew the vicious Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1979 and the U.S. gave him safe haven. If the new Iranian government had demanded that the U.S. turn over the Shah and we refused, would it have been lawful for Iran to invade the United States? Of course not.

When he announced his troop “surge” in Afghanistan, Obama invoked the 9/11 attacks. By continuing and escalating Bush’s war in Afghanistan, Obama, too, is violating the UN Charter. In his speech accepting the Nobel Peace Prize, Obama declared that he has the "right" to wage wars "unilaterally.” The unilateral use of military force, however, is illegal unless undertaken in self-defense.

Those who conspired to hijack airplanes and kill thousands of people on 9/11 are guilty of crimes against humanity. They must be identified and brought to justice in accordance with the law. But retaliation by invading Afghanistan was not the answer. It has lead to growing U.S. and Afghan casualties, and has incurred even more hatred against the United States.

Conspicuously absent from the national discourse is a political analysis of why the tragedy of 9/11 occurred. We need to have that debate and construct a comprehensive strategy to overhaul U.S. foreign policy to inoculate us from the wrath of those who despise American imperialism. The "global war on terror" has been uncritically accepted by most in this country. But terrorism is a tactic, not an enemy. One cannot declare war on a tactic. The way to combat terrorism is by identifying and targeting its root causes, including poverty, lack of education, and foreign occupation.

In his declaration that he would send 30,000 additional U.S. troops to Afghanistan, Obama made scant reference to Pakistan. But his CIA has used more unmanned Predator drones against Pakistan than Bush. There are estimates that these robots have killed several hundred civilians. Most Pakistanis oppose them. A Gallup poll conducted in Pakistan last summer found 67% opposed and only 9% in favor. Notably, a majority of Pakistanis ranked the United States as a greater threat to Pakistan than the Taliban or Pakistan’s arch-rival India.

Many countries use drones for surveillance, but only the United States and Israel have used them for strikes. Scott Shane wrote in the New York Times, “For the first time in history, a civilian intelligence agency is using robots to carry out a military mission, selecting people for targeted killings in a country where the United States is not officially at war.”

The use of these drones in Pakistan violates both the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit willful killing. Targeted or political assassinations—sometimes called extrajudicial executions—are carried out by order of, or with the acquiescence of, a government, outside any judicial framework. As a 1998 report from the UN Special Rapporteur noted, “extrajudicial executions can never be justified under any circumstances, not even in time of war.” Willful killing is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions, punishable as a war crime under the U.S. War Crimes Act. Extrajudicial executions also violate a longstanding U.S. policy. In the 1970s, after the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence disclosed that the CIA had been involved in several murders or attempted murders of foreign leaders, President Gerald Ford issued an executive order banning assassinations. Although there have been exceptions to this policy, every succeeding president until George W. Bush reaffirmed that order.

Obama is trying to make up for his withdrawal from Iraq by escalating the war on Afghanistan. He is acting like Lyndon Johnson, who rejected Defense Secretary Robert McNamara’s admonition about Vietnam because LBJ was “more afraid of the right than the left,” McNamara said in a 2007 interview with Bob Woodward published in the Washington Post.

Approximately 30% of all U.S. deaths in Afghanistan have occurred during Obama’s presidency. The cost of the war, including the 30,000 new troops he just ordered, will be about $100 billion a year. That money could better be used for building schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and creating jobs and funding health care in the United States.

Many congressional Democrats are uncomfortable with Obama’s decision to send more troops to Afghanistan. We must encourage them to hold firm and refuse to fund this war. And the left needs to organize and demonstrate to Obama that we are a force with which he must contend.

http://www.marjoriecohn.com/2009/12/obamas-af-pak-war-is-illegal.html




0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 09:48 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What do your propose we do if and when it goes back to being one?


What do you propose all these countries that the USA has terrorized do?

I just can not for the life of me understand the rank hypocrisy of the USA and way way too many of its citizens. While the actions that have been taken against the USA are crimes like any other crime, they have happened for one reason and one reason only, the USA interference, criminal interference in the affairs of other countries.

It's so bloody simple. If the USA didn't engage in terrorism/war crimes/crimes against humanity, then there would be no retaliation. The only surprise is that it took as long as it did.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2010 10:11 pm
@JTT,
I agree with you up until...
JTT wrote:

It's so bloody simple. If the USA didn't engage in terrorism/war crimes/crimes against humanity, then there would be no retaliation. The only surprise is that it took as long as it did.

Retaliation is a term that can be justified by anyone who wants to. You're asserting justification again. This is incorrect. More important, it's a perpetual argument that only justifies further violence by all those involved.

Otherwise, you're spot on.

A
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T
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2010 12:08 am
@edgarblythe,
That's honest and fine edgar.

Perhaps occupation is not the answer, but there must be one.

You recognize this so good on you.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2010 12:11 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I believe there are many liberals and conservatives who feel as I do.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2010 07:39 pm
@hamburgboy,
Another factor influencing withdrawal plans...

Poorly trained, inept, corrupt Afghan police. So ineffective, apparently, that locals turn to the Taliban for policing.

Amazing, isn't it? Ten years down the track & during withdrawal talks, it appears that local issues like this are considered only now ... Neutral


Quote:
Afghan police corruption 'hits Nato pullout'
By Kim Sengupta in Lisbon, Jonathan Owen and Brian Brady
Sunday, 21 November 2010


Britain and the US at odds over 2014 deadline for withdrawal, as experts condemn local forces' brutality and lack of training


http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00500/nato_500141t.jpg
Afghan police recruits undergoing training at the Afghan Police Academy in Kabul last month. Western experts complain that many officers do not know the law they are paid to uphold

Afghanistan's security forces are crippled by corruption, poor training and high attrition rates, senior British and US officials have revealed, casting doubt on the West's plan to leave the country within five years.

As Nato leaders rubber-stamped a strategy to transfer leadership for the fight against the Taliban to Afghan forces by the end of 2014, Western experts have complained that the vast majority of Afghanistan's police are untrained and do not even know the law.

A review of the past year by the head of the Nato Training Mission in Afghanistan (NTM-A), seen by The IoS, warned that the "transition" would not happen with the current shortfall of hundreds of experts needed to train the local police and army.

One of Britain's top representatives to Afghanistan has warned that, amid enduring suspicions over the reliability of local forces, Afghans are turning to the Taliban for justice.

Karen Pierce, the Foreign Office's special representative for Afghanistan, said the Taliban is providing a "very effective form of dispute resolution".

The grim assessment of the coalition's chances of an early exit emerged last night as the Nato summit in Lisbon was marked by conflict over the timing of the coalition withdrawal from Afghanistan. At the heart of the division was David Cameron's insistence that British troops will finish their mission by 2015 whatever happens, while other major countries declared that conditions on the ground would dictate their forces' actions. ...<cont>


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/afghan-police-corruption-hits-nato-pullout-2139883.html
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Nov, 2010 07:46 pm
@msolga,
Add yet more election fraud to that picture ... :

Quote:
One in 10 victorious Afghan candidates banned for fraud
Jon Boone in Kabul
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 21 November 2010 20.07 GMT


Hamid Karzai may overturn election body's ruling over ballot in which polling station closures hit Pashtun votes.

Almost one in 10 of Afghanistan's victorious parliamentary candidates were disqualified for cheating today after an investigation into widespread fraud during September's election.

Twenty-one candidates were stripped of their win by the electoral complaints commission (ECC) for "irregularities, usage of fake votes and the influence of provincial officials". The disqualifications will heighten tensions in the country with the publication of the final election results only days away.

It is more than two months since Afghans went to the polls for only the second time to elect MPs. The results are likely to dramatically reduce the influence of Pashtuns, the country's largest ethnic group, who have traditionally dominated Afghanistan.

They have lost around 20 seats, with their final tally set to be roughly 90, meaning they will be a minority in the parliament of 249 MPs. Pashtun voters tend to live in areas of high insecurity where many polling stations were unable to open.

The international community had hoped the election would not be as traumatic as last year's presidential poll, which was wrecked by astonishing levels of fraud committed on behalf of president Hamid Karzai ..<cont.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/afghan-candidates-banned-for-fraud
0 Replies
 
 

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