0
   

Imperfect Logic Puzzle

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 02:15 pm
@CalamityJane,
That's essentially the same solution that Freeduck proposed. The weakness here is if Eve knows what the first box contains.



Alice sends box with key to Bob.

Eve intercepts box, replaces it with her own box-with-key.

Alice sends key to Bob.

Eve intercepts key, sends her own key to Bob.

Eve now has the real key; Bob has a bogus key.

Bob informs Alice he has a key.

Alice sends box containing object to Bob.

Eve intercepts box, opens it and civilization falls.



CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 02:24 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

That's essentially the same solution that Freeduck proposed. The weakness here is if Eve knows what the first box contains.


No, Eve can't open the box. I said that Alice should send a box with a key
inside the box. The box itself is locked and Eve cannot open the box. She
can keep it, but Alice resends the box until Bob has gotten it. Again, Eve
cannot open the box and doesn't know what it contains - she only can
intercept the box, that's all. So Alice keeps resending until Bob's got it.

So, once he got the box, Alice sends a key for the outer box, and Eve can
copy the key, it won't do her any good. Once Bob receives the key, he
opens the box and finds inside a key. The key will work with the next box
he receives.

Since Eve cannot open the next box either, she only can intercept, and
Alice keeps resending until Bob received the box and can open it with
the key he's got previously.

That's foolproof Drewdad!
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 02:29 pm
@CalamityJane,
That's why I said if.

Also, you have not specified how Alice knows that Bob has received the box.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 02:44 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

That's why I said if.

Also, you have not specified how Alice knows that Bob has received the box.


That's easy, Bob calls Alice and tells her that he received the box. If
it's Eve instead of Alice, Eve can't do anything with this information,
and Alice would call Bob later on to find out if he's received the box.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 02:52 pm
@DrewDad,
Eve can eavesdrop. She'll know the password as well.


Where does it say she can eavesdrop?



What the hell does "spoofed" mean?



Why don't you just let me take Eve out shopping and to a movie all day, and Alice and Bob can do whatever they want?

CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 02:58 pm
@chai2,
It still wouldn't matter, chai, as Eve doesn't have the key. The password alone
doesn't help her. Plus Alice can call Bob directly to ask if he received the
first box (with the key as content).
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:00 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

chai2 wrote:
I think the box part can be solved by Alice calling Bob, and asking him to call her back in X number of minutes, and tell him to use a password when he calls back, one that will change each time.

Eve can eavesdrop. She'll know the password as well.

I mean, Alice calls Bob like you say. Eve listens to the conversation.

Then Eve calls Alice back instead of Bob, and impersonates Bob.

Now Alice thinks she's talking to Bob, but she's really talking to Eve.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:02 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
Where does it say she can eavesdrop?

"Anything not otherwise stated above (within reason) is considered insecure"

chai2 wrote:
What the hell does "spoofed" mean?

Impersonated.
0 Replies
 
Nick Ashley
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:23 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

No, Eve can't open the box. I said that Alice should send a box with a key
inside the box. The box itself is locked and Eve cannot open the box. She
can keep it, but Alice resends the box until Bob has gotten it. Again, Eve
cannot open the box and doesn't know what it contains - she only can
intercept the box, that's all. So Alice keeps resending until Bob's got it.

How does she know Bob has the real box? If she sends a box with key inside, and Eve keeps it, but sends Bob a box with key inside, then Bob will say he got Alice's box. He has no way of knowing it is really Eve's box, which is where the whole password in a box thing came from.

Quote:

So, once he got the box, Alice sends a key for the outer box, and Eve can
copy the key, it won't do her any good. Once Bob receives the key, he
opens the box and finds inside a key. The key will work with the next box
he receives.

When Alice sends the key, it is meant to open the box she sent. Eve has this box, so now Eve can open it and get the final key. At this point, she sends her own key to Bob, which will allow Bob to open his box, which contains a fake final key.

Quote:

Since Eve cannot open the next box either, she only can intercept, and
Alice keeps resending until Bob received the box and can open it with
the key he's got previously.

But now when Alice sends the box, Eve intercepts it, and opens it with the last key she obtained.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:25 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:


I mean, Alice calls Bob like you say. Eve listens to the conversation.

Then Eve calls Alice back instead of Bob, and impersonates Bob.

Now Alice thinks she's talking to Bob, but she's really talking to Eve.


What good would it do, if Eve impersonates Bob? First, when Alice
calls Bob (and Eve listens in) and aks him if he received the first box
which Bob confirms, then Alice knows already that he received the
first box. Even if Eve calls back impersonating Bob, what would she say?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:29 pm
@Nick Ashley,
Nick Ashley wrote:

How does she know Bob has the real box? If she sends a box with key inside, and Eve keeps it, but sends Bob a box with key inside, then Bob will say he got Alice's box. He has no way of knowing it is really Eve's box, which is where the whole password in a box thing came from.


Okay, then you're on your own now Laughing

0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:49 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Eve and Bob must not discuss this plan ahead of time, though.

Eve could intercept the first package, and replace it with her own if the contents can be spoofed.

Intercept the key, replace it with her own.

Intercept the second box, and horrible things happen.

No. Now she has two keys, but she still doesn't have The Package.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:54 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:
No. Now she has two keys, but she still doesn't have The Package.

Alice sends box with key to Bob.

Eve intercepts box, replaces it with her own box-with-key.

Alice sends key to Bob.

Eve intercepts key, sends her own key to Bob.

Eve now has the real key; Bob has a bogus key.

Bob informs Alice he has a key.

Alice sends box containing object to Bob.

Eve intercepts box, opens it and civilization falls.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 03:57 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
No. Now she has two keys, but she still doesn't have The Package.

Alice sends box with key to Bob.

Eve intercepts box, replaces it with her own box-with-key.


But Eve doesn't know what is in the box that Alice sent, so how will she know to put a key in the spoofed box?

Quote:
Alice sends key to Bob.

Eve intercepts key, sends her own key to Bob.


Bob opens box and says, hey, there's no key in here. Alice tries again.

Eve can send her own packages but she can't spoof the contents. She can't see inside the box so she has no idea that the first box contains a key and not The Package.
Nick Ashley
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 04:02 pm
@FreeDuck,
Quote:
Eve can send her own packages but she can't spoof the contents. She can't see inside the box so she has no idea that the first box contains a key and not The Package.

Interesting viewpoint. However, I think it is assumed that Alice initially has to inform Bob what the plan is. If she does this through mail, then Eve can intercept it and know. If she does this through phone, Eve can eavesdrop. Therefore, Eve will know there is supposed to be a key in the box without being able to see it.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 05:17 pm
@Nick Ashley,
I don't think Alice does need to inform Bob of the plan. She can merely send him a package and tell him to call her when he gets it. He calls her to say he got it. She calls him (ensuring that it is him) back to explain that he'll be getting a key for it soon. She doesn't need to explain what it is until after he's got it.
glooper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 06:09 am
@FreeDuck,
But what if Eve intercepts the box and then sends a dummy box to Bob and then intercepts the key when Alice sends it?

The fact of the matter is that so long as Eve can send dummy boxes, she can keep ALL of the boxes that Alice has sent. If Eve ever sends the key to any of the boxes, Eve will be able to open that box. Eventually, Eve will be able to open the master box, the one box to rule them all.

The only way that Eve will not be able to open the box is if Alice never sends it, or never sends the key for it, or if she sends the key for it in a box which she hasn't sent the key for.

Either way, Bob cannot get the key, let alone the correct box, without Eve getting it first. So either Eve gets the package or nobody does. (Unless Eve is incompetent and doesn't inntercept the right package.)

Of course, since Eve cannot copy the contents of the box, Alice and Bob will know that their stuff has been stolen, because Bob will never recieve it. That's the only drawback for Eve, she doesn't go unnoticed, only unidentified.

There is no solution to this problem. Not even a half one, because Eve will just keep everything, and you'll never be able to get the real packages to Bob.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 06:33 am
@glooper,
glooper wrote:

But what if Eve intercepts the box and then sends a dummy box to Bob and then intercepts the key when Alice sends it?

Then Eve has in her possession two keys, but not the item. Alice doesn't send the item until she confirms that Bob has opened the first box with the key sent. Eve can send a dummy box, but it won't have a key in it. Bob finds out, tells Alice, and Alice keeps sending keys until Bob gets one.


Quote:
There is no solution to this problem. Not even a half one, because Eve will just keep everything, and you'll never be able to get the real packages to Bob.

That is certainly possible. But in this scenario that still isn't the end of the world. The end of the world comes if Eve gets the master box, which she doesn't. She just gets a pile of keys. If Eve intercepts and keeps every package, Alice and Bob will stop using that courier, which isn't good for Eve either.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 07:06 am
@glooper,
Quote:

The only way that Eve will not be able to open the box is if Alice never sends it, or never sends the key for it, or if she sends the key for it in a box which she hasn't sent the key for.


Eve can't open locked boxes unless she has the key.
1. A key is sent to Bob in a locked box.
2. Alice calls Bob to see if he got a locked Box. Alice knows she is talking to Bob.
3. If Bob got a locked box, then Alice sends the key to the box she sent to Bob.
4. Alice calls Bob to see if he got a key.
5. If he did not get key then go back to step 1. with new key in a locked box. Eve has unlimited boxes and locks.
6. If he did get key then ship the master box locked with lock opened by key in first box. Call Bob, ask if he got master box, then tell him to open first box, get key, unlock second box.
glooper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 07:10 am
@FreeDuck,
But, to put it simply, Bob cannot get a password before he gets a key, unless Eve also knows the passcode, which makes the existence of a passcode worthless.

Even if Bob gets the first package, he wont be able to tell whether it's a fake or not until he's opened it with a key. If it's a fake, it's automatic stalemate, as Eve has the orginal and a key to the outside box. If it's not a fake, then its an automatic victory and Alice can send the key to the master box to Bob, and Eve wont be able to use it because she doesn't have the box.

But the real question is, if you're going to intercept a package, why wouldn't you intercept the first one?

In this case, stalemate would be reached every time. Unless a decoy is sent first. In that situation it still doesn't stop Eve from intercepting every package, but she might get bored after a while.

So it's a bit like naughts and crosses, you can't lose (unless you're stupid), and you can't win (unless your oponent is stupid). Well, that's how I see it anyway.
 

Related Topics

A2K challenge! - Discussion by HexHammer
Logic Proof Help - Question by crimhaze
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF LOGIC - Discussion by Ragman
Derivations vs. symbolisation? - Question by collegestudent123
Logic word problem - Question by johnr
Cause of death..... - Discussion by gungasnake
Need help in defining - Question by ichishti
Predicate Logic Help - Question by splenax
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/26/2024 at 02:26:58