Should There Be a Draft? Should Women Register For It?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

As for women being drafted - no. Women are equal to men in entitlement. They not identical to men. It's ludicrous to treat men and women as though there were no differences between them, just because they are entitled to the same rights. Men should try to protect women, rather than putting them in mortal danger.

As I pointed out the landscape of warfare has changed dramatically as we have continued to modernize. It's not all bullets and grenades that we fight our enemies with.

T
K
O

And therefore, what?

Therefore, why not draft them? Your attitude is not one of equality. The differences between men and women do not remove the ladies' obligation to serve their country in the same fashion as a man would.

Cycloptichorn

Alright, I'd like to explore this idea further of abandoning certain traditional relationships between men and women. You're on a large ship, far from help, when it has an accident and begins to sink. The captain orders women and children to be placed in the limited number of lifeboats. If this happens to you at some point in the future, will you go and argue with him that you and the other men deserve equal consideration?

Besides, sinking ship scenarios don't make valid points about women serving in the military or being drafted. Especially when they require a scenario in which the Navy for whatever reason is not equipped with enough lifeboats? Rubbish.

I would not draft women to serve alongside men. I heard a report on the radio describing the extremely high incidences of rape and how their complaints get ignored. Volunteers, perhaps.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

As for women being drafted - no. Women are equal to men in entitlement. They not identical to men. It's ludicrous to treat men and women as though there were no differences between them, just because they are entitled to the same rights. Men should try to protect women, rather than putting them in mortal danger.

As I pointed out the landscape of warfare has changed dramatically as we have continued to modernize. It's not all bullets and grenades that we fight our enemies with.

T
K
O

And therefore, what?

Therefore, why not draft them? Your attitude is not one of equality. The differences between men and women do not remove the ladies' obligation to serve their country in the same fashion as a man would.

Cycloptichorn

Alright, I'd like to explore this idea further of abandoning certain traditional relationships between men and women. You're on a large ship, far from help, when it has an accident and begins to sink. The captain orders women and children to be placed in the limited number of lifeboats. If this happens to you at some point in the future, will you go and argue with him that you and the other men deserve equal consideration?

No, because you are confusing consideration with obligation. They are two different things.

I will say that female officers of the ship have every obligation to make sure that the passengers get off first; that's their duty. In that fashion, both women and men owe a duty to our nation, and the differences in physiology do not change this duty. Therefore, women should be eligible for the draft if men are.

Cycloptichorn

Quote:

Besides, sinking ship scenarios don't make valid points about women serving in the military or being drafted. Especially when they require a scenario in which the Navy for whatever reason is not equipped with enough lifeboats? Rubbish.

Brandon is quite fond of these 'extreme' scenarios; wait a little longer and the sinking ship will have a ticking bomb on it, and you'll be forced to torture someone to get the women and children off. Yaknow, b/c these scenarios are realistic and all.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Besides, sinking ship scenarios don't make valid points about women serving in the military or being drafted. Especially when they require a scenario in which the Navy for whatever reason is not equipped with enough lifeboats? Rubbish.

Brandon is quite fond of these 'extreme' scenarios; wait a little longer and the sinking ship will have a ticking bomb on it, and you'll be forced to torture someone to get the women and children off. Yaknow, b/c these scenarios are realistic and all.

Cycloptichorn

The scenario seems directly pertinent to the objection you raised to my initial post.

Women are prone to being mothers. A draft should never come between a mother and her children.

So you believe. Children deprived of a mother at certain stages in life suffer long range consequences.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Besides, sinking ship scenarios don't make valid points about women serving in the military or being drafted. Especially when they require a scenario in which the Navy for whatever reason is not equipped with enough lifeboats? Rubbish.

Brandon is quite fond of these 'extreme' scenarios; wait a little longer and the sinking ship will have a ticking bomb on it, and you'll be forced to torture someone to get the women and children off. Yaknow, b/c these scenarios are realistic and all.

Cycloptichorn

The scenario seems directly pertinent to the objection you raised to my initial post.

It isn't. It posits a completely different situation than a question of Obligation to serve our nation.

Look at it this way:

IF you accept that people have an obligation to serve their nation in troubled times - which you must accept if you accept the draft in the first place - THEN there is no difference between men and women's obligation. The differences of gender do not make a substantive difference when it comes to questions of duty. And why would they? The fact that they lack a penis does not mean that they cannot fire a gun or tend to a wound. The fact that women tend to be less physically strong does not mean they cannot pilot a helicopter or plan an assault.

On a sinking ship, tradition puts 'women and children first' not out of Obligation to do so - you owe these people nothing - but Consideration. Tradition also looks at women as weak and unable to fend for themselves in any meaningful fashion. I do not believe this is true, though I do believe the repetition of attitudes such as yours reinforces some of the negative stereotypes about women in our society.

Women serve in our armed forces with honor and valor; there is no reason they cannot be treated equally with men in this fashion. Feminism is about equality, supposedly; the early feminists of the 60's knew that with added privilege (expectation of equality in society) comes added responsibility (expectation of equality in everything).

Let me ask you, do you believe women to be weak, or second-class citizens? No? Then they share the responsibilities that everyone else has in our society. There's really no other way to look at it.

Cycloptichorn

My question remains unanswered. In that situation, would you go to the captain or some other officer and complain that men ought to be seated too? Please just answer. I can hardly think of a more important example of the principle, since your life might depend on it. I favor a lifestyle in which men view themselves as protectors of women, when it comes to physical safetly. You apparently don't. Okay, so what would you personally do in that situation, if it were announced that only or primarily women and children would be seated in an inadequate number of lifeboats?

Quote:

My question remains unanswered. In that situation, would you go to the captain or some other officer and complain that men ought to be seated too? Please just answer. I can hardly think of a more important example of the principle, since your life might depend on it. I favor a lifestyle in which men view themselves as protectors of women, when it comes to physical safetly. You apparently don't. Okay, so what would you personally do in that situation, if it were announced that only or primarily women and children would be seated in an inadequate number of lifeboats?

No, I don't view men as protectors of women. That's a condescending attitude and one that posits that women can't protect themselves. I know a few women who would knock your block off for suggesting that, Brandon.

Why should we focus on your bullshit question? It has nothing to do with the actual topic, for it's a hypothetical situation which is not related to the question of whether or not you think women should be in the draft.

Cycloptichorn