25
   

Should There Be a Draft? Should Women Register For It?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 09:44 pm
@Diane,
Diane wrote:
If, as he suggests, everyone had to serve in some way, the Peace Corps for example, it would raise awareness of the seriousness of war, especially if the child of a wealthy family had the same obligation as the poorest kid in the poorest neighborhood.

That's a lot of "if"s

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 09:45 pm
@Thomas,
too many...

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 04:46 am
@Thomas,
Yes, too many ifs.
Make a list of all the persons drafted during the Viet Nam War. Remove all of those whose parents were worth less than one million dollars (1965 $$).
How many would be on the list?

Uh, that would be none. I'd bet.
I never met a draftee from a rich family, I met enlistees, but not draftees.
Joe(some how those draftees, even with the lottery, never had a worry in the world.) Nation
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 05:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

all youngsters should serve our country
in one form or another - including women.

All youngsters, all oldsters, and all middle agesters should EXPLOIT
the collective in one form or another - including women.
This is the essence of Americanism: INDIVIDUALISM
and anti-socialism.

The topic question of this thread promotes communism.
Reagan overthrew communism for GOOD REASON.
Let us join in holding it in abhorence.





DAVID
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 05:23 am
@Rockhead,
Quote:

service should not only mean Military,
but civil and skill developing as well

THAT woud violate the 13th Amendment (against slavery).
THAT woud justify overthrowing the government of the United States
and justify killing all of its leaders, as traitors, who voted to disgrace and repudiate
the deepest essence of America.

The FREEDOM of the American citizen
is not just held in the discretion of its low life, hireling government.




David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 05:24 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
No forced servitude

SO STIPULATED, Ed.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 05:32 am
By the way, chicks are TOO CUTE to draft.

( but it woud be adding insult to bad luck, to draft the fat ones )





David
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 07:32 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
From time to time there is a cordial (usually) national debate on whether it would benefit young people to be required to contribute to the general welfare whether that be in the military, Peace Corps, or other national service.

Judging from my personal experience, I think that's nonsense. Yes, I know, one person is an awfully small sample for judging things like this. But for what it's worth, I used to be a draftee in the German army, and the only benefit I can think of is that I learned to stitch buttons onto clothes. None of the people who have served with me think being drafted was a good thing for them. So if a nation has to forcibly conscript people into national service -- which I prefer it wouldn't do in the first place -- at least it should say honestly that that's what it's doing. The authoritarian parent's line -- "one day you will thank me for spanking you now" -- is tired and disingenuous.

If there should be a draft -- and again, I don't think there should be -- I see no reason in principle to exclude women from it. Depending on their effect on troup morale, they might be excluded from some units for pragmaticreasons -- but that doesn't raise to an objection to the principle that men and women should be equal in their misery.

But I don't think there should be a draft in the first place -- in case that isn't clear.


What he said...except I was never drafted so had to learn to sew on buttons without military guidance.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 07:35 am
@roger,
I'm glad I was able to convince you, Rog. Smile
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 07:40 am
OmSigDAVID, do you use all those CAPS and huge fonts and different colors so that you'll fool people into thinking you've actually got something of substance to say? I doubt that you're fooling anyone.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 08:31 am
@Foxfyre,
Will it just sicken everyone if I say something about how fun it is to keep finding out how much I agree with Obama on a wide variety of issues?

Yeah? Thought so.

I'll just go ahead and quote ehBeth then; "If yes, then yes."
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 09:04 am
From what I understand, the last time there was a draft those that could afford (and were so inclined)to get out of the draft did and the rest didn't so I am not sure what benift it served. So I guess I don't agree with Obama on this one. But on the question in point; since we are supposed to be equal, then yes, if we are to draft then women should be drafted as well. Should be hell on children though with both parents gone.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 09:08 am
@revel,
He's against the draft... just saying that if there is one, women should register, too.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 09:55 am
Should There Be a Draft?

What does 'should' mean?

Why should there be?

Truth is, a bunch of theorists can say there should

but at the end of the day, that isn't going to buy them co-operation

I think young, disadvantaged people (the ones who'd be first to get drafted) are starting to realize that SHOULD don't mean ****.
Our Governments SHOULD have behaved responsibly after 9/11 - they failed to. Why SHOULD youth pay for every old man failure (like the banks?)

In the US, the VA estimates that 18 veterans a day -- or 6,500 a year -- take their own lives. (A low estimate - but bad enough).

The army teaches brutality and servitude. Isn't there enough of that in the world already? Surely youth can be better enabled in a way that will have a positive, lasting impact on humanity's future? Education in science, environmental studies, sociology, psychology...?

Where is the vision? Things need to change - not go backward. Kids need hope and worthwhile causes -goals that will allow them to feel good about themselves when they are adults.
Learning to hate, torture, mutilate and murder other human beings, doesn't leave you feeling too good about yourself.
Once the brainwashing has worn off, like.

Pushing youth into the military is practically child abuse because adults KNOW BETTER - They know about the abuse, the deaths, the PTSD, the suicides, the failed marriages, the numbers of vets who end up homeless because they are unable to relate to society and feel abused by it.

It's too late for too many - but can't we at least try and learn?


suicide source

You know what?????

http://www.stolaf.edu/courses/ws399/ws399_03/Projects/dabneyproject/fuck_the_draft.gif
Mame
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:01 pm
@Endymion,
Right on. Well said. That was very powerful.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:04 pm
@Endymion,
Good post; tells it like it "is."
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Endy said what I wanted to say, but didn't.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:14 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Judging from my personal experience, I think that's nonsense. Yes, I know, one person is an awfully small sample for judging things like this. But for what it's worth, I used to be a draftee in the German army, and the only benefit I can think of is that I learned to stitch buttons onto clothes. None of the people who have served with me think being drafted was a good thing for them. So if a nation has to forcibly conscript people into national service -- which I prefer it wouldn't do in the first place -- at least it should say honestly that that's what it's doing. The authoritarian parent's line -- "one day you will thank me for spanking you now" -- is tired and disingenuous.

If there should be a draft -- and again, I don't think there should be -- I see no reason in principle to exclude women from it. Depending on their effect on troup morale, they might be excluded from some units for pragmaticreasons -- but that doesn't raise to an objection to the principle that men and women should be equal in their misery.

But I don't think there should be a draft in the first place -- in case that isn't clear.


Adding the second person to this sample.

(I even had to "serve" additional 18 months after I finished my draft time of 18 months (I was 'selected' to get drawn at first, in the 'alarm reserve' [since I've been in the Navy].)

I did learn a bit, got a sailing licence and one for motor boats up to 75 passengers, got certificated as a NATO-interpreter, got a certificate in welding ...

Though I had a lot of fun (duty free spirits, beer and cigarettes! a girl in every harbour ... okay, that less), I think it has been the stupiest idea: when I started my first semester at school, the girls from my grammar school class started teaching in primary school.


I don't think there should be a draft. But if there is one - equal for females and males.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:56 pm
@Endymion,
endymion wrote:
The army teaches brutality and servitude. Isn't there enough of that in the world already? Surely youth can be better enabled in a way that will have a positive, lasting impact on humanity's future? Education in science, environmental studies, sociology, psychology...?

Where is the vision? Things need to change - not go backward. Kids need hope and worthwhile causes -goals that will allow them to feel good about themselves when they are adults.
Learning to hate, torture, mutilate and murder other human beings, doesn't leave you feeling too good about yourself.
Once the brainwashing has worn off, like.

Pushing youth into the military is practically child abuse because adults KNOW BETTER - They know about the abuse, the deaths, the PTSD, the suicides, the failed marriages, the numbers of vets who end up homeless because they are unable to relate to society and feel abused by it.


Uhhh, Endy....did you ever spend time in the military? As a veteran, I take offense to your characterization of the Army as brutal, demeaning or abusive. There is no element of society that doesn't include abuse, deaths, PTSD (or stress related disorders), suicides, failed marriages, or homeless. Contrary to most organizations, the military has a vast support system for both its soldiers and veterans. Of course, some folks slip thru the cracks and these support orgs can always use more money and resources, but the military does comparably well or better than most other institutions, public or private. And as a way for those of lesser skills and means to get ahead and be successful it is incomparable....and certainly a better prospect than the Peace Corps, Clinton's Americorps, or any other national service program, which has very, very little potential for doing much except give the volunteer a few years of feel-good experience and a little money for college.

I've got no problem with a national program of service, but military service should be an option and should not be disparaged or discouraged because of ignorant views like yours.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 01:14 pm
@sozobe,
Not a bit. I probably agree with him on at least one issue, too.
0 Replies
 
 

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