Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 03:19 pm
@hamburger,
The people on CNBC often talk out of their hats, but at least this time they admit they are clueless. If they actually informed themselves on the process before reporting on it--maybe assign somebody to watch the senate hearings?--they wouldn't appear quite so clueless.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/09/24/does-treasury-need-700-billion-all-at-once/

The game plan here is not quite as much of a gamble as the fifth race or the roulette wheel. What they are betting on is a sound economic principle and a long track record of the resilence, productivity, and integrity of the American people. Few Americans do not pay their debts who have the ability to pay them. The proposal being worked through Congress is geared to give people a chance to have that ability.

One of several things that makes me so angry in this deal is that I am sure no rocket scientist but I can grasp the concepts involved. I had to go hunting for them though. Why isn't the President and our other elected leaders spelling this out in simple terms for the public so that the people will understand what is at stake and how the solution will work? Maybe they think they can't do that without triggering a whole lot more cooks in the kitchen, but if we're going to have transparency, let's have it up front at the beginning. I think THAT, more than anything else, would restore the people's faith in the system.
Ramafuchs
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 03:28 pm
@Ramafuchs,
Let me stick to the subject of this thread.
Here is a person who shares with my critical views, though he was born In USA.

Full text to peace the thinking( not irrational) participants of this forum.

"There is great disorder under heaven, and the situation is excellent." -- Chairman Mao

Fed’s $85 Billion Loan Rescues Insurer (NY Times)

The bailout [of American International Group]... effectively puts taxpayer money at risk while protecting bad investments made by A.I.G. and other institutions it does business with.

Do you get it now? The rich and powerful spend years making foolish deals in a market they rigged with the connivance of utterly corrupted politicians on both sides the aisle; their fraudulent scheme finally collapses, exposing them to some of the most horrific financial losses in history....and YOU will have to pay for it. For generations. Not only directly, with the tax money straight from your pocket, but even more so in the further degradation of national life: infrastructure, services, programs, amenities that will be starved or abandoned as even more of the government's money is poured out to shield the wastrel elite from suffering the consequences of their own rapacious folly.

And with all the talk of a "new Cold War," who knew that it would be Washington and Wall Street, not the Kremlin, who resurrected socialism in the 21st century, in what the Times called "the most radical intervention in private business in the central bank’s history"? Socialism for the rich only, to be sure. Ole Joe "Bankruptcy Bill" Biden and his bipartisan cohorts in Congress have long made sure that any ordinary citizen -- especially the old, the sick, the poor, the most desperate -- will be squeezed to the last drop to pay off their debts, even if these were incurred through illness or misfortune. But for our boardroom Bolsheviki, the state is always there, to cushion and to coddle.

And who knew there was so much money in the federal coffers? Endless, roaring torrents of money available for the ever-expanding operations of the global Terror War (up to $3 trillion for the rape of Iraq alone), and all of this on top of an ever-expanding "regular" military budget that tops half-a-trillion dollars each and every year. And now tens of billions for Bear-Sterns, Fannie Mae, Fannie Mac, A.I.G. and the next fat-cattery to go under. Gosh, you mean all that cash was just lying around under the federal mattress all along?

You mean we could have used some of it for, say, building schools and hospitals, or national health insurance, or rebuilding our globalization-gutted cities, or drug rehab programs, or caring for our elderly, or helping people start businesses, or repairing our rotted infrastructure, or supporting the arts and sciences, or building parks and other "common pleasures, to walk abroad and recreate yourselves"? You mean there has been enough money there all along to help create a more just, equitable, enjoyable and civilized society? Don't that beat all?

Well, there will be none of that now, thank god. Even if a party that was actually committed to the well-being and security of ordinary citizens (a description that of course excludes the ticket of "Wall Street Barry" and "Bankruptcy Bill Joe") were to somehow take power one day, they will be hogtied by the mess left behind by the elite's financial boondoggles and their many wars. They'll be lucky if there is enough spare cash on hand to buy a few sandbags the next time a hurricane turns toward New Orleans, much less address any of the massive civic, social, economic and infrastructural disasters that confront us.

But of course no ticket committed to such a thing will ever be allowed to get near the White House. That game too is now as rigged as the market. Arthur Silber explains this double-rigging in rich detail in a recent piece: "The Vampire, Struck by Sunlight." You should read the whole thing, but the passage below is particularly apt for the current situation (see original for links):

Those people who have followed the foreign policy catastrophes of recent years are repeatedly struck by this phenomenon: all the "experts" who are supposedly so knowledgeable in this area -- that is, all the "experts" who led us into the catastrophes and who were grievously, bloodily, murderously wrong about every significant matter -- remain entrenched in the foreign policy establishment. Moreover, they are precisely the people to whom everyone turns for the "solution" to the disasters that engulf us, both now and the disasters likely to come. This is what it means to have a ruling class. As I have said, the ruling class rules. The ruling class exercises a lethal monopoly on the terms of public debate, just as it exercises a lethal monopoly on the uses of state power.

What you have seen over the last six months and more, and what you will see in the coming months and years, is the same phenomenon in the realm of economic policy. All of the solons who led us into this abyss of mounting debt, worthless securities, failing financial institutions, economic contraction and collapse, rising taxation, and all the rest, will now instruct us as to how we should "solve" the crisis that they have created. The crisis may be ameliorated to a degree, and the worst of the consequences may be postponed for a while. But whatever "solutions" are implemented, whatever reorganization and reregulation is imposed, it will all be done in accordance with the ruling class's desires and goals. It will all be to protect their own wealth and power to whatever extent is possible, and to expand their wealth and power still more....

The ruling class is the state. The state exists to serve the interests of the ruling class, and only the interests of the ruling class. They may promise you greater unemployment benefits, better health care, and a host of other government benefits -- all benefits also paid for by you, please note (the ruling class does have a sense of humor, after all; vampires are often crudely funny creatures) -- and those promises will cause most Americans to fall for the con still one more time.

Whatcha gonna do? Not a goddamned thing. Vote for McCain! Vote for Obama! It doesn't matter. The ruling class wins either way. The ruling class always wins. That's how the system was designed, and that's how it works. For the ruling class, it works very admirably.

That last observation by Silber is perhaps the most telling, and frightening of all: despite all the disasters raging around us -- the wars, the atrocities, the tyranny, the economic collapse -- the system is working. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do: serve the rich and powerful, guard and protect them, entrench them in their rule. Just like John McCain says, the system is fundamentally sound.

P.S. And for those who believe that the current conniption somehow presages the collapse of the American empire, please note that the sound system of elite service described above is backed up by the most powerful military machine in the history of the world (including a nuclear arsenal that can obliterate any nation at any time), directed by a militarized state that has never shown the slightest hesitation in using violent force against its own people should they step too far out of line. It's not going to collapse overnight because of a well-cushioned crash on Wall Street or a few botched wars. It still has many miles to go " and much blood yet to spill " before it faces the inevitable axe of history
http://www.chris-floyd.com/1.5/
for some of the chewing gum English speakers the above quote is too high to understand.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 03:31 pm
According to our news those charged with dealing with the crisis neither know yet whether a deal will be reached nor whether it is a good thing if it is.

I noticed that Mr Bush used the word "distressing". I think he chooses his words very carefully as he did with "addicted". It is always distressing to see addicts trying to get clean. Something to do with the "silly existential needs" Rama mentioned.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 03:55 pm
@roger,
Quote:
Nevertheless, $120,000 for a two bedroom cottage is screaming outrageous, or so it seems to me.


last time we were there those condos were exactly "cottages" - at 1,250sqft actually bigger than our 1,050 sqft house - but perhaps we are pikers .
hbg

0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 03:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
The title of this thread is let it crash.

Yes let it. The system is teetering on the edge. Lets give it a big push. Well done the capitalists, you have brought down the capitalist system.

What we need now is troops on Wall Street and in the City of London. Smash their way into the dealing houses and banks and take back the people's money.

We dont need $700bn, we just need a bit of judiciously applied brute force. Smile
Ramafuchs
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 04:14 pm
@spendius,
I noticed that Mr Bush used the word "distressing". I think he chooses his words very carefully as he did with "addicted". It is always distressing to see addicts trying to get clean. Something to do with the "silly existential needs" Rama mentioned. .
I had used more adjectives against Bush for the last 7 years.
And i have no regret nor i wish to repent.

As a die-hard communist Dreamer i am up against the corporate controlled callous consume country( Usa) system.
The title is about the rescue operation of the barbaric , pathetic, banal corporate system( banks WS or call any **** name)
my communist is dead.
Where is your intellectual credit card consumer capitalism now?
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 04:22 pm
@roger,
The $120,000 seems high, of course, Roger. And they are not much to look at. But investors can get (H'burger knows more about the numbers than I do) anywhere from $800-1200 a week renting them to yankees and canucks.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 04:27 pm
@Steve 41oo,
I'm surprised that "brute force" has not appeared on our landscape - yet. People out there are angry and frustrated.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 04:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That was the impression I got from an English reporter in the US.

He said that the feeling was at least 100 times stronger than the feeling we had here when we saw the scenes outside Northern Rock branches a bit back.

So it must be pretty acute.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:00 pm
@spendius,
But I don't believe in panic.

I have every confidence in Congress to come to the most appropriate conclusion. I think they are only pretending to look like startled rabbits.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:05 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Quote:
What we need now is troops on Wall Street and in the City of London. Smash their way into the dealing houses and banks and take back the people's money.


They won't need to smash their way in Steve. Bursting a paper bag will have the uniformed bouncer holding open the door and bowing.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:10 pm
@realjohnboy,
$120,000 gets you an income of between $41,600 and $60,000!!!???

The world's money will be pouring into cheap US property if that is true. Unless there are unforseen expenses of course.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:13 pm
@spendius,
In season, Spendi, not year round. May-Sept or so.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:19 pm
@realjohnboy,
those condos in KINGSTON PLANTATION (part of radisson chain at that time) were $200,000 and up a few years ago - mind you , we thought it was a pretty posh place .
just checked their winter rental rates :
$900 to $1,100 per month without daily linen service - you just look after your own needs , but everything is supplied - that was always our choice .
that's less than a weekly summer rental .
there are lower priced units further back from the ocean - but why go to m.b. if you aren't on the ocean - golf holds no interest for us .
hbg

kingston plantation - pretty nice cottages imo .

http://www.beachandmountainvacations.com/images/Kingston%20Plantation.jpg
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:28 pm
@hamburger,
If you can buy that for £100 grand things are bleak. A ten by six third floor flat in Soho with a sink behind a curtain used to fetch more than that here. Is it in an earthquake zone.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:29 pm
@hamburger,
Amazing. I must admit I am not a beach person. Mountain boy. So what do I know?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
last thing i heard on CNN : the $700 billion have not been approved :
hbg


Quote:
Associated Press - September 25, 2008 5:23 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AP) - A White House meeting is under way between President Bush, John McCain, Barack Obama and other key lawmakers on a multibillion-dollar bailout plan for Wall Street.

Bush says he hopes an agreement can be reached "very shortly."

The tentative agreement hashed out by congressional leaders would give the Bush administration just a fraction of the $700 billion it has requested up front. The plan calls for the Treasury secretary to get $250 billion immediately. And he could have an additional 100 billion if needed. Congress would have the power to block the last 350 billion through a vote.



let's hope the asian market will be satisfied !
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  5  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:31 pm
I have no figures to support this, but I do wonder.

That 700 billion dollar bailout that congress is proposing, instead of bailing out the banks, I cant help but think it would be cheaper for the govt (read taxpayer) to simply pay off everyones mortgages.

That way, the taxpayer would get something for our money, instead of just pissing it away.
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:40 pm
@mysteryman,
That I'd accept.



Do I have to stop paying my mortgage first?
0 Replies
 
barackman28
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 05:42 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
You admit then that the power of the government is being used to do the bailout--Good-step one.

You dodge the question concerning Health Benefits. If we can bail out the greedy CEO's and Banks, we can fund Universal Health Care. That's government as it should be--step two.

This is a government of the people, by the people and for the people, not government for a stinking 1or 2% at the top who suck profits out of the poor workingclass.

Here is somemore government for you--let's put in a strong excess profits tax limiting every company( especially oil companies to no more than a four % profit. That's plenty. Of course, government will have to provide oversight.

You denigrate Senator Obama's pledge to cut taxes for the lower 95%. If the government raised taxes on people like Buffett to 50% instead of 35%, we would be able to take care of the unfortunate and the poor.

All citizens have a right to gthe fulfillment of basic needs and if that means the government must tax those who have much much more than they need, then, it must be done. All US citizens have a right to basic shelter, decent food, good health care, and adequate educations for their children. To do any less means a betrayal of the dream of Democracy.

The rich won't die off--They will just have to make do with five million a year instead of ten million a year--and I hope that President Barack Obama makes it clear that they can no longer shirk their basic responsibilites as citizens.

Government's basic duty is to defend the defenseless and the poor. If that means government intervention--so be it!
0 Replies
 
 

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