roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 11:53 am
@roger,
Umm. Link isn't working.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:04 pm
@roger,
The whole financial system is teetering on the brink of disaster.

AND I SAY GIVE IT A SHOVE Smile
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:08 pm
@Steve 41oo,
That would have been the best move, because our economy would have remained under capitalism.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:15 pm
@roger,
Hey Roger,

I didn't think it would survive (affordable housing) the light of day. But then a lot of this stuff wouldn't given enough transparancy. Many in congress decry the lack of such in Wall Street investments but are loath to undergo a little truthful UV light when it comes to earmarks and such. But McCain vowed to, not only shed more light onthem but to let everybody know who stuck them in the bills.

JM
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:28 pm
@JamesMorrison,
Hot of the presses, or CRT as it were.

Summary of the Draft Proposal
To Rescue U.S. Financial Markets

REINVEST, REIMBURSE, REFORM

IMPROVING THE FINANCIAL RESCUE LEGISLATION

Significant bipartisan work has built consensus around dramatic improvements to the original Bush-Paulson plan to stabilize American financial markets -- including cutting in half the Administration's initial request for $700 billion and requiring Congressional review for any future commitment of taxpayers' funds. If the government loses money, the financial industry will pay back the taxpayers.

3 Phases of a Financial Rescue with Strong Taxpayer Protections

Reinvest in the troubled financial markets … to stabilize our economy and insulate Main Street from Wall Street
Reimburse the taxpayer … through ownership of shares and appreciation in the value of purchased assets
Reform business-as-usual on Wall Street … strong Congressional oversight and no golden parachutes
CRITICAL IMPROVEMENTS TO THE RESCUE PLAN

Democrats have insisted from day one on substantial changes to make the Bush-Paulson plan acceptable -- protecting American taxpayers and Main Street -- and these elements will be included in the legislation

Protection for taxpayers, ensuring THEY share IN ANY profits

Cuts the payment of $700 billion in half and conditions future payments on Congressional review
Gives taxpayers an ownership stake and profit-making opportunities with participating companies
Puts taxpayers first in line to recover assets if participating company fails
Guarantees taxpayers are repaid in full -- if other protections have not actually produced a profit
Allows the government to purchase troubled assets from pension plans, local governments, and small banks that serve low- and middle-income families
Limits on excessive compensation for CEOs and executives

New restrictions on CEO and executive compensation for participating companies:

No multi-million dollar golden parachutes
Limits CEO compensation that encourages unnecessary risk-taking
Recovers bonuses paid based on promised gains that later turn out to be false or inaccurate
Strong independent oversight and transparency

Four separate independent oversight entities or processes to protect the taxpayer

A strong oversight board appointed by bipartisan leaders of Congress
A GAO presence at Treasury to oversee the program and conduct audits to ensure strong internal controls, and to prevent waste, fraud, and abuse
An independent Inspector General to monitor the Treasury Secretary's decisions
Transparency -- requiring posting of transactions online -- to help jumpstart private sector demand
Meaningful judicial review of the Treasury Secretary's actions

Help to prevent home foreclosures crippling the American economy

The government can use its power as the owner of mortgages and mortgage backed securities to facilitate loan modifications (such as, reduced principal or interest rate, lengthened time to pay back the mortgage) to help reduce the 2 million projected foreclosures in the next year
Extends provision (passed earlier in this Congress) to stop tax liability on mortgage foreclosures
Helps save small businesses that need credit by aiding small community banks hurt by the mortgage crisis"allowing these banks to deduct losses from investments in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac stocks

From WSJ online 9/28/08
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122260585791683335.html?mod=article-outset-box#
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 01:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't mean explain the plan to the masses, ci. I mean I don't think folks fully understand the financial situation and why it's a big deal.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 01:09 pm
@JPB,
I doubt very much many people really understand their "own" finances. I believe that the majority of Americans are not prepared for retirement.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 02:56 pm
@JPB,
It's only a big deal subjectively JP. From a sentimental point of view.

Scientifically it's a nothing thing and especially from an evolutionist's perspective.

Are you an evolutionist like c.i.

Suppose every American disappeared in a flash of light. Then suppose that the aboriginal population of 400 years ago had done the same thing. Compare then the relative detrius in the landscape of the two cultures.
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 03:06 pm
If there is to be a steady decline in incomes due to this blip it might be worth asking if the public sector of the economy (the eaters of the budget as Stendhal called it) would decline at the same rate as the private sector.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 03:08 pm
@spendius,
Yes.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 03:33 pm
@spendius,
doubtful. Not while there's still a big printer icon in the sky.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 03:53 pm
@JPB,
True.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 04:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Yes.


Do you mean that you think the public sector would decline at the same rate as the private sector?

No wonder you are an evolutionist. There's no point in only being barmy in one specialism.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 04:12 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Suppose every American disappeared in a flash of light. Then suppose that the aboriginal population of 400 years ago had done the same thing. Compare then the relative detrius in the landscape of the two cultures.


Has that been put on "Ignore"?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 04:25 pm
@spendius,
It's a psychological problem folks.

Can't you face it? I thought you were all scientific. What the **** else could it be?

I wet my breeks studying Ms Pelosi's face on the News. She was fair thrumming with self importance. And she hasn't the faintest idea except in regard to pulling off looking self important convincingly.

And she not so good at that I don't reckon. It's hard to be impressed when you're tittering uncontrollably.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 05:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Given this financial crisis is even close to significant, governmental backed entitlements may encounter a double whammy. A slow down in the economy (increased employment) would decrease the absolute number of taxpayers and therefore the tax base for the payroll tax that supports social security. A further tax increase here by lifting the cap (so "wealthier" taxpayers individually pay more tax) would take more money out of the economy slowing it further.

Additionally, if the government takes the route of further increasing individual taxes without cutting back on benefits this would again slow the economy further due to burdensome taxes siphoning off capital. The cycle is then complete. The government will then be tempted to raise taxes again, people will be less likely to work since less and less of their paycheck actually ends up in their pocket and businesses will be less likely to invest given increased taxes. The Fed might then try its hand at adjusting the economy by lowering interest rates and increasing the money supply which will devalue the dollar further. Devaluation of the dollar will increase the price of oil with all that implies adding further to inflation and driving all those international investors away--to get them back we will have to pay ever higher interest rates on our debt driven economy, further slowing the economy (and none of this takes into account the interconnection of the U.S. and the global economy). Given this, and the state of the economy we might very well experience another 70's like bout of stagflation--a sluggishness economy with ever increasing inflation. We will then be looking for another Reagan/Volker combo. The upshot is that the next President and congress will be faced with ugly choices to continue to fund those entitlements. The chickens will finally be on the road home. Jim Lehrer’s question to Friday's participants of the presidential debates about the financial bailout effect on their "best laid plans" (sans rodential participation) hinted at this. But neither was willing to "go there".

JM

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 05:56 pm
@JPB,
Entirely reasonable skepticism JPB, but it comes down to trusting the Market, rather than trusting the people who play therein, because the latter can't be trusted but the former can be.

Although this crisis is a fairly simplistic play of economic principles, it is, for the individual, an understandably complex issue.

The market place is a self-organizing system, very much like the ecology.

The more outside interference, the more like the chance of an undesirable outcome, and yet both systems (along with others of a similar nature) present an irresistible target for supposedly reasoned human interference.

This is not to say that humans should not try to interfere with natural processes. We can't help ourselves from trying and we should not, but we need to understand the limitations and consequences of our interference.

Just about every time we have attempted to steer the local, national or global ecology it's been a disaster: Rabbits in Australia, Water hyacinth is China, pigs, gone feral, in Hawaii, eradication of wolves in northern America etc etc etc, and yet, despite the fearsome objections of one track minded environmentalist, we keep it up.

However, was the original notion so stupid? Was the result entirely bad?

Tough to say.

Unfortunately, most of the folks who respect our ecology as a self-organizing system that shouldn't be messed with by mere mortals are not only happy but also inspired to mess with our self-organizing economy.

There's room for tinkering with both, because we are humans and capable of transcending natural law (less so now than we will be, for sure), but, at present, we are not very good at it.

Most of us watch a NatGeo show and root for the rabbit over the wolf, wolverine, lynx, or hawk, but that's silly sentimentalism - or is it?

Of course, if the rabbit wins each and every time the predators die out and prey animal population explosion and then implodes.

And yet so many of us cannot bear the thought that the self-organizing Marketplace must have winners and losers to remain healthy.

This is Life: some people will suffer. Someday we will change the rules and this won't be true, but that day is hundreds, if not thousands, of years away.

Humans are messing with the Marketplace for good and bad reasons, and so we (Society) can't take an entirely hands off approach --- this bailout. However, if we attempt to introduce too much "messi'n" in the solution, we will only leave ourselves with more problems to face.

It's a damned delicate proposition.

Think though about whose advice you would believe:

The Secretary of the Treasury who has about 4 months left at his post, and no hope, what so ever, of reprising his role, or the folks who want to preserve their jobs in DC or assume bigger and better ones?

Our system of government is not based upon the noble intentions of humans, but upon their failings. This was the basis of the incredible intelligence of The Founders. Have faith in humanity but recognize, and design against, its weaknesses.

This bailout is a complicated mess of self-interest and selflessness. It would be foolish not to be pissed off, and it would be foolish to insist on some silly plan that promises to never let it happen again.

Personally, I think the schmucks who have buried their companies while making extreme personal fortunes should be left begging in Calcutta --- but for reasons of accountability, not retribution.

Keep in mind that while these schmucks made their fortunes, many others made out very well, as well.

The Schmucks probably, for the good of their companies and shareholders, should have been firing or laying off thousands of employees, but they didn't because to do so would have announced to the world that their company was in trouble. So thousands and thousands of American "Salary-Men" got to keep their jobs and their wages when, probably, they should not have.

Many now are out of jobs but do any of them suggest that they should have been so months or years ago?

The notion that we, as citizens, should all have an equal share of our nation's prosperity has been utterly debunked and anyone who continues to promote it is an ide0logical asshole.

Here's the deal:

Work ridiculously hard (Steve Job, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet et al) and work smart and you will have an advantage that translates into material rewards. You probably won't have much of a family life but you will likely be rich.

You don't want to work really hard because you think there is more to life than working? Good for you, but spare us the horseshit that so many of you spew that you should be rewarded at the same level as those who have decided that work is all.

You get what you work for.

If you work hard on your relationships, you get good relationships. That's the reward, not a share of the money earned by those who believe that working hard on business is most important.

Who is more despicable?

The driven bastard who ignores his family to make wealth for himself, his employees, and his shareholders.

Or

The lazy pompous shithead who argues that while he or she contributes very little materially to our economy, should get the same reward as the driven bastard because "it's fair!"

Here's the modern problem: The people who contribute to society in, arguably, ways that transcend economics now want to insist on a piece of the economic pie equal to those of the folks who actually fuel the economy.

What's worse, they want the low lifes who do nothing but suck life from the economy to profit as well.

They need to remain consistent.

Someone who prizes creative contributions over those of base capitalists, should be happy with their rewards and should not demean themselves by insisting on a share of the cut when they have contributed nothing to it.

As they are more than happy to lecture us, we don't all need to be rich....and neither do they.







0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 07:24 pm
@JamesMorrison,
I'm in agreement; the government has never learned to do what's necessary to keep social security self-sustaining. Our government has failed in many ways including spending more than revenue under most administrations and congress. Pork is embedded into the system, so they still pay a billion dollars for research into why grass grows.

There isn't too much voters can do, but we continue to vote in the same people who continue to ruin our economy and security.

Most politicians take money from lobbyists, and people wonder why they work for the biggest donors rather than their constituents.

It's a mad cycle that will not change any time soon, no matter who becomes our president next January.

We must just hope that our economy has enough foundation to outlive the torture our government and we seem to endure it.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 10:13 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I agree with Fox that this situation isn't being explained very well to the masses. Perhaps it's because it's an election year and every member of the House and one-third of the Senate is up for reelection in a few short weeks. Perhaps it's because some folks think that those who really control our economy (foreign investors) need to have warm and fuzzy feedback that they should keep paying our salaries. Or, perhaps it's just that they think the average citizen just won't understand (or shouldn't understand) that by being a debtor nation (80% of Americans carry a credit card balance with an average balance of $17,000 -- I don't have numbers for the % of businesses that survive on credit) and living beyond our means from top to bottom and back again both as individuals and businesses that we've allowed ourselves to lose control of the purse strings. This isn't just about the housing market. It's the fact that we live on credit and life as we know it will be very different if there's a credit freeze.

The crisis is purported to begin when the Asian markets open on Sunday for a reason.

I don't think there's anything to do now but figure out a way to move forward, but I would like to see a major push to revamp the American lifestyle to one that isn't based on maximum debt.



I completely agree, and if I am honest, that last line contains the seed that started me thinking in this direction. Somewhat self destructive, I know. One of my fears (besides the fear that massive incompetence will bail us under and not out) is that the bailout works well enough to allow us to continue to behave as we have been. After all, what are the consequences? If it gets really bad the government will bail us out.

I also agree with Foxfyre about how it is not being explained to lay people very well. I see an opportunity for the presidential candidates (not to inject the campaign into this). The candidate who can come out and succinctly, accurately, and carefully explain to us how we got here, what this bill will do to help us get out, and why they support it, will get quite the bump in the polls.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 10:15 pm
@FreeDuck,
IMO Bush explained it clearly and accurately in his address to the nation explaining the need for government intervention.
 

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