Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 10:06 am
Green Witch wrote:
I never liked that Putin guy. I guess Bush didn't see this coming when he looked into Putin's soul.


bush looking into putin's soul.... let's find an analogy.... I think I have colon cancer so I have slingblade give me a colonoscopy....
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 03:55 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Green Witch wrote:
I never liked that Putin guy. I guess Bush didn't see this coming when he looked into Putin's soul.


I was wondering if anyone else remembered that lovely sound byte.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 06:30 pm
Quote:
U.S.: Russia trying to topple Georgian government

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The United States on Sunday accused Russia of trying to overthrow the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia, where Russian troops have been battling Georgian forces over the breakaway territory of South Ossetia.

At an emergency session of the United Nations' Security Council, the U.S. alleged Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili "must go."

"This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line," said the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Zalmay Khalilzad, who made the allegation.

In a crackling exchange of a type rarely seen since the end of the Cold War, Khalilzad asked Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin whether the Russians were seeking "regime change" in Georgia with the military operation they launched Friday.

In response, Churkin objected to the disclosure of a confidential phone call between top diplomats and said "regime change" was "an American expression."


The term was one the Bush administration used to describe its goals in the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which Russia opposed. But Churkin said some leaders "become an obstacle" to their own people, and "some situations take courageous decisions with regard to the political future."

"Sometimes there are democratically elected or semi-democratically elected leaders who do things which create grave problems for their countries," Churkin told reporters after the meeting. "So sometimes, those leaders should contemplate how useful they have become to their people."

The pro-Western Saakashvili came to power in Georgia's "Rose Revolution" in 2003 and was elected president in 2004 and 2008. His government has strong U.S. backing, has contributed troops to the American-led war in Iraq and applied for membership in NATO.

Georgia's ambassador, Irakli Alasania, said Churkin's meaning was clear enough.

"For me, it confirms that what the Russian Federation is seeking through this military aggression and invasion is to change the democratically elected Georgian government," Alasania said.

Khalilzad said the United States plans to offer a draft resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire in Georgia, accusing Russian forces of impeding the withdrawal of Georgian troops from the territory. Though Russia could veto the measure in the Security Council, he said Moscow "is on the wrong side here" and risked damaging its ties with Washington and the West.

"The days of overthrowing leaders by military means in Europe -- those days are gone," Khalilzad said.

The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.

Russia sent tanks to South Ossetia on Friday, saying it wanted to protect its peacekeepers posted there following cease-fires in years past. By Sunday the conflict was raging in other parts of Georgia as well, including another breakaway area, Abkhazia, located in northwestern Georgia.

Each side accused the other of killing large numbers of civilians. Russia said at least 2,000 people have been killed in South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali.

Churkin repeated Russia's position that it is responding to Thursday's Georgian attack on South Ossetia, which, although inside Georgia, has an autonomous government that is backed by Moscow.

Churkin said Russia's military action is a humanitarian campaign aimed at blocking the "ethnic cleansing" of Ossetians by ethnic Georgians.

He also challenged Khalilzad's argument that Russian forces were waging a "campaign of terror" there, essentially telling council members to consider the source.

"This statement, ambassador, is absolutely unacceptable -- particularly from the lips of the permanent representative of a country whose actions we are aware of, including with regard to civilian populations in Iraq and Afghanistan and Serbia," Churkin said.


But Churkin drew a rebuke from other Security Council members, including its current president, after he questioned the objectivity of a top U.N. official who briefed ambassadors on the conflict in Georgia.

The Security Council's president, Belgium's Jan Grauls, said he was "surprised and dismayed" by Churkin's swipe at Lynn Pascoe, the U.N. undersecretary for political affairs.

Churkin said Pascoe's briefing, which included a statement from Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, "shows that the Secretariat of the United Nations and its leadership was not able to adopt that objective position that is required by the substance of this conflict."
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 07:26 pm
(following)
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 08:18 pm
link to interview with North Ossetian (from German national TV station)

Want to get back to this later. He basically says that Ossetians don't really trust the Kremlin, but in the current situation, the Russians are the only ones to protect them. Says that you can't trust Russian or Georgian media, but complains about biased reporting in Western countries, too. Complains specifically about CNN and BBC. Criticizes the fact that many reports are in favour of Georgia, even though Georgia started the attacks, killed thousands of civilians and caused the wave of tens of thousands of refugees. Says that some reports were entirely false, showing pictures of attacking Georgian fighter jets and describing them as Russian jets dropping bombs.

(Interview in German)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 09:36 am
An interesting analysis which i heard on the radio this weekend suggested that the purpose the Russians have in mind is to destabilize the current Georgian government, and to unseat Saakashvili in the belief that he leads a pro-western minority, and that any government which replaces him would not be pro-western. If true, that would be a rather dull-witted assumption on the part of the Russians, since it is highly unlikely that any government sufficiently possible to remain in power is going to embrace the Russians.

I suppose it could happen, but i doubt it.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 10:01 am
Set--

I believe Russia has been placing Russian loyalists in Georgia, and they may now exist in numbers strong enough to win (or successfully throw) an election favoring Russia.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 05:50 pm
That would have to be a hell of a lot of Russians. The most that anyone could hope from such a tactic would be to have a parliamentary minority government, in which the winning party polled more than any other party, but not an absolute minority--such as Harper's Tory government in Canada.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 02:02 am
I have just been informed that an uncle of my wife is in Abakazia at present. He is a professor of languages at a major University in England and married to an Abakazian woman.

No news is good news I suppose.

Sooooooo very glad I live In OZ
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 04:03 am
So news to hand.

My wifes uncle is currently safe and well in Sukhumi the capital of Abkahsia. He reports that his daughter in the South of Abkahzia could hear the bombing so he drove down and got her.

He states with emphasis that the current conflict is all the Georgians fault. I understand that Abkahzia is considered pro Russian.


Perspective
Apparently South Ossetia is around the same land area as greater Melbourne 8806 km² (3,400.0 sq mi).
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:04 am
dadpad wrote:
So news to hand.

My wifes uncle is currently safe and well in Sukhumi the capital of Abkahsia. He reports that his daughter in the South of Abkahzia could hear the bombing so he drove down and got her.

He states with emphasis that the current conflict is all the Georgians fault. I understand that Abkahzia is considered pro Russian.


Perspective
Apparently South Ossetia is around the same land area as greater Melbourne 8806 km² (3,400.0 sq mi).


Isnt Abkhazia the other province in Georgia that is separatist?
Arent they also fighting to kick the Georgians out?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C08%5C12%5Cstory_12-8-2008_pg7_1

So there were Russian troops already in Abkhazia?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:08 am
Soldier,
What part of the Russian govt do you work for?
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:19 am
mysteryman wrote:
dadpad wrote:


I understand that Abkahzia is considered pro Russian.



Isnt Abkhazia the other province in Georgia that is separatist?

[/color]Yes[/color]

Arent they also fighting to kick the Georgians out?

Not sure they are actually fighting. Abkahzia has the status of autonomous Georgian state but is still within the Georgian political system. abkahsia is inddeed considered separatist.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C08%5C12%5Cstory_12-8-2008_pg7_1

So there were Russian troops already in Abkhazia?


Yes and in Sth Ossetia as well, these I understand were considered "peace keeping troops".
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:20 am
dadpad wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
dadpad wrote:


I understand that Abkahzia is considered pro Russian.



Isnt Abkhazia the other province in Georgia that is separatist?

[/color]Yes[/color]

Arent they also fighting to kick the Georgians out?

Not sure they are actually fighting. Abkahzia has the status of autonomous Georgian state but is still within the Georgian political system. abkahsia is inddeed considered separatist.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C08%5C12%5Cstory_12-8-2008_pg7_1

So there were Russian troops already in Abkhazia?


Yes and in Sth Ossetia as well, these I understand were considered "peace keeping troops".


"Peacekeepers" dont go on the offensive.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:30 am
Quote:
"Peacekeepers" dont go on the offensive.



Russia to end operation against Georgia

August 12, 2008 - 9:15PM


Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told defence chiefs today he had decided to cease Russia's military operation against Georgia.

"I have taken the decision to end the operation to force Georgian authorities into peace," Medvedev said at a televised meeting.

"The purpose of the operation has been achieved ... The security of our peacekeeping forces and the civilian population has been restored," he said at the meeting with Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and the head of the military's general staff, Nikolai Makarov.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/russia-to-end-operation-against-georgia-20080812-3u43.html
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 05:34 am
Heard on TV this morning, the Russians have demanded Georgia President step down.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 09:17 am
mysteryman wrote:
dadpad wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
dadpad wrote:


I understand that Abkahzia is considered pro Russian.



Isnt Abkhazia the other province in Georgia that is separatist?

[/color]Yes[/color]

Arent they also fighting to kick the Georgians out?

Not sure they are actually fighting. Abkahzia has the status of autonomous Georgian state but is still within the Georgian political system. abkahsia is inddeed considered separatist.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C08%5C12%5Cstory_12-8-2008_pg7_1

So there were Russian troops already in Abkhazia?


Yes and in Sth Ossetia as well, these I understand were considered "peace keeping troops".


"Peacekeepers" dont go on the offensive.



To the best of my knowledge: they didn't. What happened, apparently, was that Russia has for a while been amassing regular troops (the "peacekeepers" were, according to reports, only lightly armoured) just across the border, on the Russian side.

Following the Georgian attack, they swiftly moved hundreds of tanks (I read the number 500) and 20,000 troops across the border, into South Ossetia and then on into Georgia proper.

I read a report from a correspondent in Tskhinvali which cited the Russian military, claiming that Russia was not invading Georgia, just creating a "safety zone" around South Ossetia.

---

More realistically, it seems as if Russia has been waiting for the slightest kind of provocation to move at least into South Ossetia. Given the scale of the Georgian attack (or at least the scale according to Ossetians and Russians), it looks now as if Russia isn't content with a fully occupied South Ossetia, but is rather going for regime change in Georgia.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2008 10:04 pm
Quote:


Why Russia Invaded Georgia: Payback Time From the Orthodox World to the West


As Russia sees it, Bill Clinton turned the American Air Force into air support for an Islamic revolution against the Orthodox world. The attack against the Serbian homeland was an exercise of naiveté equivalent to bombing Vatican City then wondering why Roman Catholics might be upset and stay upset. Then George Bush decided it would be a good idea to place a missile defense system in Poland, disregard Russia's advice and invade Iraq and further insult and encircle the heart of the Eastern Orthodox world.

It takes a special breed of a-historical American president who is steeped in the Protestant idea of denominationalism; wherein Methodists, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists etc., all do their thing and somehow get along, to so thoroughly misunderstand the fact that Russia is reemerging first and foremost as a country reconnecting with its Orthodox historical imperial roots. We just have no concept of blood ties, soil and holy tradition in America. Since we don't take tradition seriously we can't believe that anyone else does.

For us the bottom line is always expediency and "what works." But in other parts of the world national pride is tied to a continuity of historic tradition (as was just demonstrated so beautifully in the opening ceremonies at the Beijing Olympics steeped as they were in Confucianism, and imperial history.)

In Russia's case its public humiliation at the hands of the United States, following the Cold War, could not have been designed better to have produced the invasion of Georgia. What's going on is the slow-motion counterattack of the Orthodox world against the West's latest crusade. Georgia is just a symbol for the counter-punch to the modern version of the West's sack of Constantinople in 1204.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/why-russia-invaded-georgi_b_118344.html


0 Replies
 
refugee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 03:16 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1w8aPvlBxQ
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2008 04:35 am
@mysteryman,
MM wrote:

"Soldier,
What part of the Russian govt do you work for?"

******************************************

I'm guessing the FSB, and i suspect this clown is the same propagandist who has been posting here for years, denigrating the Georgians and the American government routinely.

(OK, how the f*** do you quote someone in your reply? New sites suck by definition.)
0 Replies
 
 

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