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Did the big bang occur in empty space?

 
 
g day
 
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Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 06:24 pm
Chumly - I am asking what precludes it - that is all.

So this is saying let there be matter, energy, spacetime whatever and suddenly insert a tremendous influx of energy in a point form that causes an overwhelming explosion. Yes this would invalidate a whole lot of scientific models as a thought experiment - trying to explain where did this energy originate and why was it in point form. Quantum mechanics may one day rule this in or our - alah M-theory Brane / Brane interactions - until then I am simply asking if we accept a model that says there was a huge explosion a long while ago - why must we say and it had to happen in nothingness rather than already existing space. What can we observe today that says no - it must have happened in nothingness because ...?

And yes if it did occur in pre-existing space-time - it hugely complicates determining the age of the universe!

Terry - agreed

M-theory and quantum mechanics allow for random events - given enough time, maybe a really big one occurred. Hawking showed theoretically near a black hole virtual particle / anti-particles could appear but rather than annihilate each other and disappear one gets swallowed by the black hole - reducing it - whilst the other escapes as a real particle - called black hole radiation. Weird huh?

Let's leave the cause for the big bang explosion alone - as its theoretical model gets too exotic, and instead simply ride along with it happened, and it happened starting in close to or a point form.

If the explosion was large enough to have energy densities that would rip the boundaries of relativity apart - such as inflation - that's going to do alot of violation to Copernicus anyway - by causally disconnecting spacetime! As to a local centre of the explosion - again it gets tricky because of inflation "suspending the rules or relativity" - this complicates understanding the geometry and topology or spacetime considerably. And 14 billion years after an even that now has a likely shock radius 200 billion light years (far faster than light speed prorogation due to the fact spacetime itself was caused to expand). As I understand it this is why you can't find a explosion epi-centre. Again if the bag was big enough I don't know if matter and energy already existing would have altered this finding in any way - hence my query.


M-Theory or Membrane theory is a sum of 5 competing 9 dimensional reality models that ties in super-gravity framework by making reality now 10 dimensional and saying each of these theories is a subset of the whole. Very theoretically possible - but you can't prove a thing yet to confirm or deny its existence. String theory or super symmetry (SuSy) is easily broad enough to model this - but not constrained enough to make any useful predictions. Hence scientists are saying after 20 years - when is string theory going to be able to make a prediction.

The biggest mistake in science is that every cubic metre of space should have vacuum energy of around 10^120 joules - but we can't seem to see it exist anywhere - big whoopsie. Maybe it does and its hidden in extra dimensions - maybe gravity is just the shadow of it leaking across dimensions - nothing is ruled in or out until a framework can make predictions that can be tested!
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 08:26 pm
Yep, There is an infinity in there somewhere. I have some difficulty with wondering why it seems so hard for people who IMO should know better to accept even the possibility of eternity.
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 08:28 pm
I'm kinda curious.

Why should there be a vaccum energy? Can you describe it?
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g day
 
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Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 09:06 pm
An example - space time is really multi dimensional and what we see as empty isn't the lowest energy state a volume of space can be in. If it has a deeper reality - hinted at by some theoretical physics models and some interpretation of high-energy experiments, this reality may be able to manifest itself in the right conditions into the marco world we see.

High energy physics I believe is moving closer to the point where geometry of space time may play (stress may) a more important role than the force carriers and particles with mass that move through its framework.

If physicists can say here is proof definite of other dimensions - relativity is going to have to be significantly enriched.

Is it all a pipe dream? Well top physicists know our understandings are missing major things - they just don't yet have the experimental data to say what - and which model is more likely. The LHC may help to rule in or out certain models in the coming months and years!
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g day
 
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Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2011 09:46 pm
@Chumly,
Years later - I add on...

I postulate if a huge energy density - 10 ^ 80 Joules got teleported into our reality somehow, in near point form - say near Planck level dimensions 10 ^ -45 metres cubed - and it arrived near Saturn - what could a civilisation existing 14 billions years later postulate later about what conditions where like before the energy arrival event?

Chumly - I am pondering the case a mass influx of energy in an already populated universe - rather than was the singular creation event. Imagine if this somehow could happen - but it only rarely does - say once every 50 billion years. So yes if you lived 14 billion years later - anywhere within the blast radius of the energy influx event - I ponder it would look exactly like what we see today.

Today we can see out to a red shift of about 13 - so imagine a hubble sphere of 100 billion light years to the furtherst edges of the CMB. I don't think we have any model that can theorise what (if anything) is on the other side of the CMB's receding shock wave!

The Big Bang with inflation is used to most simply explain what we see today. It starts with a creation from nothing once there is a massive influx of very dense ultra high energy. I simply wondered how does the scenario change if "something" already existed - but that same high energy event occurred?
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MannaWalker
 
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Reply Thu 19 Dec, 2013 12:09 am
@NickFun,
Yup! I agree!
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