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OUTRAGE OVER WHALING ... #2 <cont>

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 05:23 pm
@msolga,
See, heres where irony guy would fit.
I still think its gonna be a long effort but that gradually a change in the worlds attitude will come about so that who are now called "outlaw environmentalists" will be looked on as heros to saving these species from disaster.

Someone is now speaking for the whales , and its not an argument about whales as a commodity, there only to serve human needs.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 05:31 pm
@farmerman,
Yeah, I know, farmer.
Where is Irony Guy when we need him? (I think I might start an Irony Guy competition here, & submit the winner for Robert's consideration. Smile )

Quote:
I still think its gonna be a long effort but that gradually a change in the worlds attitude will come about so that who are now called "outlaw environmentalists" will be looked on as heros to saving these species from disaster.


I know. I agree. But it's taking too long! And I wonder what will be lost in the meantime.

This latest news from Oz is interesting. We now have the Greens (left of Oz politics) & the Liberals (the conservative alternative party) calling on our federal government to put its money where its mouth is (pre-election promises) on whaling. This Labor government has been such a disappointment.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 07:12 pm
@msolga,
I believe that if the Australian goverrnment were to send a naval ship to the area for surveillance all it could do would be to document the systematic violations of the international rules of the road for ocean going ships done by the "green" ships.

The unfortunate fact for you in this matter is that - like it or not - the Japanese have international law on their side.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 07:21 pm
@georgeob1,
If you call denying that a southern ocean whale refuge even exists and that they can do fishing with impunity as having international law on their side then we see things 180 differently.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 07:36 pm
@farmerman,
I'm not arguing with your or msolga's preferences on this matter - only citing the fact that the Japanese operations in the sanctuary are being done in accordance with the governing international agreements. You don't agree with them, and that is your right. The Japanese see it differently, and that is their right.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 07:54 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I believe that if the Australian goverrnment were to send a naval ship to the area for surveillance all it could do would be to document the systematic violations of the international rules of the road for ocean going ships done by the "green" ships.


This is precisely what they promised to do. Collect the necessary evidence for an international legal challenge.

Quote:
The unfortunate fact for you in this matter is that - like it or not - the Japanese have international law on their side.


Which international law, precisely, sanctions commercial whaling in a whale sanctuary?
My understanding is that it is the "scientific whaling" loophole of the IWC which lends "credence" to their activities in the Southern Ocean.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 08:53 pm
@msolga,
What international law establishes a "whale sanctuary"? This is a volunary convention and Japan, a sovereign nation, is operating under an exception built in to that convention. You don't happen to agree with it: unfortunately your objections don't constitute international law.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:06 pm
@georgeob1,
George, you're going to be on the side of anything goes for profit, no matter what is said. We could argue endlessly about the validity of exploiting the IWC "scientific whaling " regulation vs the validity of the existence of a whale sanctuary. There is no "law" that I actually know of which actually clearly sanctions the Japanese position. If you want to believe that exploiting a loophole in the "rules", to carry out commercial whaling, constitutes respect & adherence to international law, feel free.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:22 pm
@msolga,
I'm not arguing with your beliefs about what should be the law: only with what is. in fact, the law. Profit has nothing to do with it.

International law consists only of what sovereign nations accept as binding law. Japan is a voluntary party to the whaling convention, and is so far abiding to what is established in the convention. I will agree the other national parties to the agreement, Australia included, knowingly accepted a somewhat hypocritically stated loophole that gave Japan the rights it is now exercising. Presumably they did this in the belief that the alternative was worse. However, it simply makes no sense for you now to assert that the Japanese actions are illegal. They most certainly are not.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:25 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I will agree the other national parties to the agreement, Australia included, knowingly accepted a somewhat hypocritically stated loophole that gave Japan the rights it is now exercising.


You have the most interesting ways of "interpreting" things, George! Wink
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:29 pm
@msolga,
Do you dispute my interpretation ? I believe it conforms to the known facts. The convention that establishes the sanctuary also gives Japan the right to harvest whales for research purposes in it. That was obviously a euphamism designed to enable all the national parties to both save face and, reach a generally acceptable agreement.

Japan is being no more hypocritical than the other signatories. I suspect that is a factor behind your government's reluctance to do as you wish.

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:35 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

George, you're going to be on the side of anything goes for profit, no matter what is said. We could argue endlessly about the validity of exploiting the IWC "scientific whaling " regulation vs the validity of the existence of a whale sanctuary. There is no "law" that I actually know of which actually clearly sanctions the Japanese position. If you want to believe that exploiting a loophole in the "rules", to carry out commercial whaling, constitutes respect & adherence to international law, feel free.


What rules are you talking about here? There is no international government able to make "rules" of the type you cite that can bind sovereign nations. Moreover there is no political or military force constituted to enforce such rules. This fact has some undesirable consequences, to be sure. However, I believe the alternative would be far worse.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:38 pm
@msolga,
And now, before your next interesting comeback, George, I am going offline.

I think, over 2 long threads, we discussed the pros & cons of the ban on whaling at least 75 times, the ramifications from every which way, the validity or otherwise of the IWC ruling .... followed by endless discussion & debate about the consequent exploitation of the scientific whaling loophole by the Japanese to carry on with commercial whaling in a whale sanctuary.

As I said, if you want to believe that Japanese are acting within the IWC guidelines, feel absolutely free to believe that. If you also believe they are acting with integrity, you can believe that, too.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 09:46 pm
@msolga,
I believe they are acting with the same level of integrity as are the other signatories to the treaty that established the current regime.

Again I sympathize with your views on the matter but believe this is essentailly a political question.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 10:12 pm
@georgeob1,
.... as opposed to a purely commercial ones?

There are a few environmental concerns I might just have, you know, George? Wink
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 03:44 am
@msolga,
Catch this on PM Msolga?:


Japan's treatment of Greenpeace activists an abuse of human rights: UN


http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2813540.htm


I'll post the transcript when it becomes available.


Note...these are Japanese Greenpeace people.



More on this:

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/oceans/whaling/ending-japanese-whaling/whale-meat-scandal




http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20081209zg.html


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/16/the-tokyo-two-go-to-trial_n_167285.html


msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 05:52 am
@dlowan,
Oh, "the Tokyo Two!

Yes, I'd been following this for a while (incredible situation they were in!), then lost track.

Thanks very much for the latest information, Deb!

Will need to do a bit of reading, I see!
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:23 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I'm not arguing with your or msolga's preferences on this matter - only citing the fact that the Japanese operations in the sanctuary are being done in accordance with the governing international agreements. You don't agree with them, and that is your right. The Japanese see it differently, and that is their right.
Going further, let us say that to oppose the japanese is everyones right. I dont want to get overly dramatic but the argument they pose is very similar to the one they used to acquire Manchuria.

Youseem to discount the establishment of an international whale sanctuary and the fact that the Japanese are merel twisting the IWC agreements to even do whaling. I think youve taken a fairly unsupported position and are stickin with it. I think it would benefit you to look further into the entire matter before you take a position that has no sides for any debate in your mind.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:25 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What international law establishes a "whale sanctuary"? This is a volunary convention and Japan, a sovereign nation,
SO are the IMF, The United Nations, and The Red CRoss I believe. Its all based upon good will, honor , and trust. (The Japanese have not displayed any of the above)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:36 am
@dlowan,


Quote:



Whale meat scandal and the Tokyo Two

Junichi Sato and Toru Suzuki, known as the “Tokyo Two”, are due to stand trial on February 15th - charged only for theft and trespass. But over the past two years it has become clear that they are being persecuted for so much more.

Corrupt government practices, censoring public information, Japan’s adherence to international law, freedom of speech and the right of individual protest together with the commercial killing of thousands of whales are all under the spotlight. And before the verdict has even been rendered, a working group of the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) has already ruled that, in the defendants' attempts to expose a scandal in the public interest, their human rights have been breached by the Japanese government.

In January 2008, Greenpeace Japan commenced a four month investigation into claims, made by a whistleblower, that crew members of Japan’s whaling fleet have for many years been embezzling significant amounts of prime whale meat and selling it for personal gain, with apparent official consent.

Working from information given by former and current whaling company Kyodo Senpaku employees, we documented the offloading of smuggled whale meat into a special truck, in full view of Kyodo Senpaku officials and crew members, when the Nisshin Maru docked on April 15th, 2008.

Junichi and Toru, removed one of four boxes addressed to a crewmember from a mail depot, whose contents were listed as ‘cardboard’. Inside, they found salt-cured unesu or ‘whale bacon’, valued at up to US$ 3,000. One informer told Greenpeace that dozens of crew take as many as 20 boxes each with the agreement of the whaling company, Kyodo Senpaku

Having exposed this scandal, two of our activists our now facing up to 10 years in prison in Japan. .

Greenpeace Japan exposed the scandal at a press conference, and delivered the box of whale meat to the Tokyo District Prosecutor, as evidence of widespread corruption in Japan's publicly funded whaling programme.

Before the embezzlement was exposed, an official of the Japanese Fisheries Agency claimed that whale meat was never given to crew. But once the whale meat embezzlement was revealed the responses from those involved with the Japanese Government’s whaling programme were many and varied. Kyodo Senpaku changed their story three times in almost as many days. The company now claims that each crew member receives 9.5kg of whale meat.

An investigation was initiated by the Tokyo District Prosecutor but was suddenly dropped on the same day that the Greenpeace office in Tokyo and the homes of four staff members were searched by some 40 police officers, in full glare of the media, who had been tipped off. Junichi and Toru were arrested and held for 26 days. During this period, they were questioned daily for up to ten hours, strapped to a chair, without access to counsel " common practices in Japan, which have drawn repeated criticism from the UN Human Rights Committee. Eventually, Junichi and Toru were charged with theft of the "cardboard" and trespass. They were released subject to strict bail restrictions and face up to ten years in prison.


A hugely significant ruling

The UNHRC’s Working Group on Arbitrary Detention informed the Japanese government in December that their treatment of Junichi and Toru breached no fewer than five articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The working group also recognised the following facts. ....


http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/oceans/whaling/ending-japanese-whaling/whale-meat-scandal
0 Replies
 
 

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