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Who Else Loves King Lear?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 07:38 pm
ehBeth

The question is, what exactly are you giving up on?
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 07:43 pm
Beth,

I think Groucho said it too. Laughing Have you ever seen a citation for that often quoted, quotable quote? I haven't. If you find it, please let me know, because I believe the context will tell more about what Sigmund may have meant by what he said. No one has ever been able to cite the quotation for me. I've just made a quick attempt to find it, unsuccessfully, but I'll post a question on the list serve for the American Psychoanalytic Association and some of my colleagues may be able to help. To Freud nothing was ever only what it is. But it does seem that he was no exception when it came to being human and prefering to not analyze some things about himself. He was said to be quite stubborn about it. And the popularity of that so often quoted quotation attests, I think to the wish on all our parts to deny the symbolism behind our behaviors, symptoms, fantasies, dreams and choices. It's simply not necessary to analyze everything, although it might have been in Freud's best interest to have been more willing and successful in analyzing his cigar smoking. He died a very painful death caused by his long years of cigar smoking. But he did love his cigars. And they gave him much pleasure. And there's something very good to be said for that. We can only guess what it meant to him since he wasn't apparently very willing to think or speak about it. He did once hint however that he thought it was related to a compulsion to masturbate. And we can all see very clearly the phallic nature of a cigar as well as certain oral pleasures. Freud was very interested in sex. Laugh.

The following is what I did find, these two from "More Than A Cigar" by Evan Elkin
Freud adamantly insisted that cigars were a part of his life that was to remain insulated from the observing eye of psychoanalysis. The famous quote captures this sentiment: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

And:
And for Freud himself cigars were rich in symbolic value. In fact, contrary to the quote attributed to him, for Freud a cigar was never just a cigar. Cigars and smoking are central to understanding Freud's life, his work and his own personality.

And this from Peter Gay, Freud's biographer, not about cigars, but instead about the arts and Lear:

"What Freud left behind, even among sympathetic readers, was the thought that to reduce culture to psychology seems no less one-sided than to study culture while leaving out psychology altogether. Appearances to the contrary, Freud did not take his view of the arts in order to discredit them wholly. Whether it is made of wit or suspense, of dazzling color or persuasive composition, the aesthetic mask hiding primitive passions provides pleasure. I helps to make life tolerable to maker and audience alike. Thus, for Freud, the arts are a cultural narcotic, but without the long-range costs that other drugs exact. The task of the psychoanalytic critic, then, is to trace the various ways in which reading and listening and seeing actually generate aesthetic pleasure, without presuming to judge the value of the work, it's author, or it's reception. Freud needed no one to tell him that the fruit need not resemble the root and that the garden's loveliest flowers lose none of their beauty because we are made aware that they grow from malodorous manure." Freud A Life For Our Time, p. 323.

And another interesting little tidbit about Freud and Lear also from the Peter Gay book"

" . . . Freud confessed to Ferenczi that his "little daughter" Anna had led him to thoughts of Cordelia, King Lear's youngest, thoughts that generated a moving meditation on the roll of women in a man's life and death. . ." p. 433

Cav,

My patients are psychoanalytic patients. I'm a psychoanalyst, of the Freudian variety.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 07:45 pm
I don't understand why everyone's giving up around here. But oh well........if you must, you must.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 08:00 pm
Hey, I'm not giving up....perhaps Lear rejected Cordelia because of issues with his mother (who we never meet in the play, long dead I would think, but we can speculate as to her influence on Lear). Lear's mother most likely smothered him, leading him to destructive relationships with women, and the consequent rejecting of Cordelia, the only one who truly cared for his welfare. I am most likely over-simplifying the plot though Laughing
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 08:10 pm
Cav,
These are wild analytic speculations of yours, silly. No, my question was where is the mother of Lear's daughters. But oh well, never mind.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 08:48 pm
I would assume that the missing mother was also the mother of the daughters...being absent from the play entirely, one can speculate anything regarding her character, which actually might make for an interesting thesis....
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 06:26 am
post edited upon second thoughtedness.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 06:32 am
I don't think you are a wanker, Miss Rabbit, and i greatly appreciate the passion you have expressed for what you love. I love the nimble use of language, and i delight in the profundities which Shakespeare can present. When i was at university in the 1960's, i, too, loved to engage in the discussion of an author's meaning--in the context of the author's time and life, and in the contemporary context.

When i "re-encountered" literary criticism in the 1980's, i was appalled, and quickly grew to despise it. I'm sorry if i've offended you here, i mostly came to have fun. I do hope that you will not bear a grudge against me for having spoiled your fun.

As for BLatham, i have no idea what he is on about. But then, that has lately been a description of my reaction to his every criticism of me and what i write--and i frankly don't care. The only comment i've made on Lear is that he set himself up for his own fall. Nothing else; my comments about writing "buckets of blood" plays for popular consumption quite clearly referred to the historical plays (which is a term not usually applied to King Lear). Accentuating the christian imagery of anything written between 1520 and 1900 is naive at best--people in Europe were obsessed with angels dancing on pinheads, and one demonstrated one's erudition and loyalty to a particular confession with such allusions. Referring to pagan allusions in the text is a stretch--we know little of what constituted the "pagan" beliefs of ancient Britain, and as the sources are Bede, Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth, and therefore christian and clerical, are highly suspect. It is far more relevant to examine what beliefs and prejudices obtained in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, when the plays were written--and that is the type of literary criticism with which i was familiar almost 40 years ago. I have little interest in the conventions of literary criticism today.

Miss Lowan, i do sincerely apologize for having ruined your fun. I do love the Bard and the plays, and would not wish to offend you, as you have always been kind to me.
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 06:39 am
'Twas but a tantrum, Setanta. Think not on't!!!
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 06:49 am
Aww...bunny....I return with coffee to find your post edited....too bad, really. Sure, I made a couple of Freudian convention jokes with Lola as a diversion, but I am certain she understood I knew nothing....as for my opinions on Lear, I LOVE Lear, and I think that is obvious. If I had a point at all it was that King Lear is a play one must immerse themselves in...in the language and the imagery, and ignore literary criticism (in the strict sense of the term), hence my post regarding 'impressions' vs. 'analysis'. Think of it this way: the very discussion of Lear has driven us all to near-madness....powerful stuff, that. Wink
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 06:55 am
Well, I suppose we may thank god I did not make a thread upon the Scottish Play.....
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 06:56 am
Did you see the goddamn tantrum, too?

Is there NO safe time for misbehaviour and a few anglo-saxon expletives around this place!!????
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:02 am
I don't keep a regular schedule...cheffing and what not...Wink Your passion for the play was so exuberant, and a bit mad...I thought it was perfect. Also, it read 'impressions' of Lear, this thread, everything. A+ work! I was sad to see it go, but it was indeed not very Buddha-like....Lear-like, it was Smile
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:04 am
But to the girdle do the gods inherit...
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:05 am
If anyone here truly thinks you are a wanker, bunny, I will have them killed.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:06 am
Umm, virtually....with my big red shoes....
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:08 am
'S allright. No moderators here.....
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:14 am
Speaking of the 'Scottish Play', did you see the Polanski version, with the bloody head rolling down the stairs, and the naked Lady Mac(deleted for the safety of theatre folks)? Now THAT'S the cure for a Lear tantrum...the shortest of all Shakespeare's tragedies too, if I recall.
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dlowan
 
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Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:19 am
Sure -weren't deleted here.

AND - did you notice that the question of whether Macbeth sees "real" or imaginary ghosts appeared to be answered, by Polanski at least, on the "real" side?

That is, Polanski's dead Duncan has wounds matching those portrayed in the murder scene - NOT those described by the murderers...heehee.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Aug, 2003 07:24 am
Well, the nekked Lady Mac---- was a bit distracting, but I thought the movie in general was a bit of a sensationalist travesty. I didn't notice the wound thing, but I'm not too good with continuity errors. Interesting indeed...as for the ghosts, yeah, I prefer to think of them as I thought of them upon reading the play, as imaginary.
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