Czech Republic: Roma children denied equal education

nimh wrote:

Those quotes are from a new report by the Open Society Institute (OSI) about the access (or lack of access) that Roma have to good education in Slovakia, which was presented at a press conference just yesterday! Timely, eh?

The press conference was both for the OSI report and a report by Amnesty International on the same subject. Here are the reports:

Open Society Institute: Equal Access to Quality Education for Roma in Slovakia

Amnesty International: Still Separate, still Unequal: Violations of the Right to Education for Romani Children in Slovakia

The OSI report is part of a series of monitoring reports that are being published on Roma access to education in different Central and East European countries - including Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, CJ:

Equal Access to Quality Education for Roma

Take a look and tell me what you think, I'd be very interested.

Thank you nimh, that's a lot to read, and I will do that in more depth
later on. I did scan through it though, and I can see a correlation between the US and our illegal alien dilemma. Whereas, the United States has realized that we need to educate all children, regardless of its ethnic and legal status. Right wing members always opposed to this arrangement, educating children of illegal aliens, but there is no other solution, than to continue allowing them a decent education and equal opportunities. These are children of our future! I think the EU should put more pressure on Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria to acknowledge the Romas as citizens of their countries, enabling them to receive the same education and benefits as others.

Which brings me to my next question: if - for census purposes only, the
Roma are acknowledged as citizen, do they receive any benefits at all?
I am talking about healthcare, unemployment etc.

By the way, farmerman's folk tales of the Roma and other gypsy groups is a prime example of why Romas are to this day perceived in this
manner, thus being segregated by their fellow countryman. These folk tales are persistent and fierce.

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The US pop of Romnachelli are same genetic stock as the founder population. Dag, while not calling me out as a NAzi, used her book reference about the errors in science as the foundation of the Holocaust. When indeed it wasnt an error in science but an evil misrepresentation of its principles that spawned the Holocaust. No , I wasnt directly called one, I was just linked to them by the inference that my thinking was in the same boat that brought about the Holocaust. Close enough.

I like arguing with pack mentality. and NO, I owe noone any apologies . Sglass, if youve never had loved ones victimized by grifters then you cant understand the low level of respect I hold travellers . Ive been told that the law abiding members of the Gypsy community hold these members in the same contempt that Italians hold Mafiosi. Ive seen the majority Italians are law abiding good folk, Ive yet to meet a decent US "Irish traveler" or Romnachelli.

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CalamityJane wrote:

Thank you nimh, that's a lot to read, and I will do that in more depth later on.

Sure, of course .. I usually read the executive summary and only browse through the rest at most, if other people have reports out like that. Cool

CalamityJane wrote:

Which brings me to my next question: if - for census purposes only, the
Roma are acknowledged as citizen, do they receive any benefits at all?
I am talking about healthcare, unemployment etc.

Nominally,they have the same rights as everyone, they're citizens after all (the problem of undocumented people apart). But whether they receive it and how is another question: because of the segregation, health care is harder for them to access, and because of the prejudice, the quality of care they receive is often lousy.

Unemployment benefits and the like here are lousy for everyone (and whatever is there is rapidly deteriorating because of the reforms), but the problem there is rather that unemployment among Roma is three, four, five times as high as among other groups, and in the segregated settlements near-universal.

CalamityJane wrote:

By the way, farmerman's folk tales of the Roma and other gypsy groups is a prime example of why Romas are to this day perceived in this
manner, thus being segregated by their fellow countryman. These folk tales are persistent and fierce.

Yep. I didnt know that you had the anti-Gypsy sentiments in America too tho, didnt even know it was an issue there as well. I only got a taste of it when I was reading a film review a month or two ago and came across this:

Quote:

'Gypsy Caravan' 3 stars

Jasmine Dellal directs, produces and writes this catchy documentary about a 2001 concert tour of five Gypsy bands. Onstage, backstage and on the road, the musicians are irresistible characters. Dellal detours to Romania, Macedonia, India and Spain to show her stars in their respective hometowns.

The camera work is always note-perfect. American master Albert Maysles is one of the shooters covering the "Queen of the Gypsies" Esma Redzepova, the traditional Indian folk troupe Maharaja, Romanian brass band Fanfare Ciocarlia, Taraf de Haidouks and the Antonio El Pipa Flamenco Ensemble. [..]

Dellal dedicates her film to the Decade of Roma Inclusion 2005-2015, an initiative by eight European countries to repair centuries of discrimination against Gypsies, more properly called Romani people. At one point, a Romani-American sound recordist shows the camera a log book from a motel where they stayed. The Nov. 4 entry reads: "Mo, watch out for the Gypsies. They barely speak English, and they are scary. They look at you kind of funny. I'm not sure what to think of them, except 'I'm scared.' "

"The truth is, most Americans believe the cliches about Gypsies," a less wary American tells the visitors. "Gypsy Caravan" peddles a new stereotype of earthy, vivacious, chain-smoking, paid-in-cash music-lovers.

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farmerman wrote:

Sglass, if youve never had loved ones victimized by grifters then you cant understand the low level of respect I hold travellers.

Right.

I had a girlfriend once, who cheated on me, with this African guy. And then another African guy. The cheating sure hurt, I can tell you - even if I wasnt really the one to talk. And yeah, the group of young Africans in town they were part of were all out-and-out players, out to score Dutch chicks (or any chicks). So, according to your logic, I would be justified to hold "Africans" in low respect? Even make blanket statements about all of em, anywhere?

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nimh wrote:

farmerman wrote:
Sglass, if youve never had loved ones victimized by grifters then you cant understand the low level of respect I hold travellers.

Right.

I had a girlfriend once, who cheated on me, with this African guy. And then another African guy. The cheating sure hurt, I can tell you - even if I wasnt really the one to talk. And yeah, the group of young Africans in town they were part of were all out-and-out players, out to score Dutch chicks (or any chicks). So, according to your logic, I would be justified to hold "Africans" in low respect? Even make blanket statements about all of em, anywhere?

Mr. Farmerman,

In 1983, returning to my apartment on St. Botolph Street in Boston on New Years Eve after a party. I had stepped into the foyer of my building to check my mail before going up to my apartment and was "mugged". I had a knife to my throat was told to surrender my handbag, I struggled, I sustained a knife cut under my chin and my attacker cut the strap of my bag and took off with me right behind him. I caught up with him and we had another struggle on the street and he kicked me, pushed me down on the sidewalk and stomped on me. I sustained some very serious injuries. Now this gentleman was of another ethnic background than I. Now let me ask you this: Am I supposed to stand in judgement of everyone from Africa, Jamaica, Trinidad, Haiti? Am I supposed to hate every one from the ghettos of Harlem, Roxbury, MA, Watts in LA. because of what one person did to me?

Guess what Mr. Farmerman. I don't. Because that is the "Pack Mentality".

I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was a victim of violent crime.

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farmerman, you keep referring to the book i mentioned. you repeatedly omit what i said afterwards. i never said or alluded to you being a Nazi. Even the label 'bigot' came from you, I have nothing to do with that.

You have said it's not the science but its evil misrepresentatioin that leads to disasters. WHy, you must have missed this then:

dagmaraka wrote:

But it's never the science alone that is at fault. It's what it's used for.
so tell me again, what point of yours does the research showing congenital disorders and mutations in Roma prove? And why should that matter to my work or to the case of Roma children not getting equal education?

no, you owe ME no apology. you've said plenty, same points multiple times, although never answering the question i keep asking you: WHY? What do you want? Why here in this thread?

By the way, and i said this before also: Slavs are also one genetic pool. So what? Should we pronounce the nations they formed as false and not based on realities? Should we disregard history and culture entirely and deal purely with genetics? Or what IS your message with all this?

Funny. You openly admit yourself to be a bigot and base you attitude towards to Roma on personal experiences yet you beat science over my head.

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farmerman wrote:

The US pop of Romnachelli are same genetic stock as the founder population.

OK, nobody's arguing with you... but so WHAT?

Quote:

Ive been told that the law abiding members of the Gypsy community hold these members in the same contempt that Italians hold Mafiosi. Ive seen the majority Italians are law abiding good folk, Ive yet to meet a decent US "Irish traveler" or Romnachelli.

Again, I make no comments about how it's in the U.S. But I have lived with many law abiding Roma in Europe and no, others do not hold them in contempt. Your genetics do not apply here if that's what you're alluding to with constant reference to it.

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To clarify one last point:

There is a much higher crime rate among the Roma than in the rest of the population. I think it was stated directly in some of the news articles and reports posted and cited here. You might claim it's genetics (*might* - I'm not saying you do), I might claim it's social conditioning and historical path dependence- doesn't matter. The crime rate is higher, that's a fact.

Again, so what? That does not change the human rights situation in Central Europe, and it does not change the fact that MOST of the Roma in Central and Eastern Europe are decent people like you and I. Whatever the multiple and complex reasons for the higher crime rate are, it don't make them lesser humans, or does it?

Crime rate among African Americans is higher than in the majority population. Is there also a gene that explains that? If that is not what you're trying to say with your genetic studies evidence (and I hope it isn't), than please explain yourself, because it is confusing. I don't understand your motives. I will listen.

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[quote="nimh]

CalamityJane wrote:

Which brings me to my next question: if - for census purposes only, the
Roma are acknowledged as citizen, do they receive any benefits at all?
I am talking about healthcare, unemployment etc.

Nominally,they have the same rights as everyone, they're citizens after all (the problem of undocumented people apart). But whether they receive it and how is another question: because of the segregation, health care is harder for them to access, and because of the prejudice, the quality of care they receive is often lousy.

Unemployment benefits and the like here are lousy for everyone (and whatever is there is rapidly deteriorating because of the reforms), but the problem there is rather that unemployment among Roma is three, four, five times as high as among other groups, and in the segregated settlements near-universal. [/quote]

Yes, there are paper rights and there are real rights. European Charter of Minorities as well as domestic legislation in these countries (Slovakia at least anyway) grant minorities with concentration of 20% or more within the region the right to be educated in their mother tongue. Great. Hoewever, as I said before, direct result of these education policies is that there are no people who could become educators. It's simply not implemented.
Health? Sure, we all have free healthcare... but where? 10-20 miles away from the settlements, without infrastructure or means to get there, and when ambulances have been known to refuse to go pick people up in Roma settlements.
They do receive unemployment benefits, that is true. They however cannot receive jobs, the statistical discrimination is widespread through every niche of the society. If you have a village with 99% population of unemployed adults who have no perspective ahead, no hope of success of any sort, no resources, no education, no know-how, nothing... you are guaanteed that other problems will pile up.
And on and on.

I do believe education is the key. I do hope that this court case will translate into widespread changed enforced into primary and secondary education and that in 20-30 years we will be in a very different place. Until then, God give us patience and understanding to muddle through best we can.

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nimh wrote:

Yep. I didnt know that you had the anti-Gypsy sentiments in America too tho, didnt even know it was an issue there as well.

Neither did I. In all these years living in the US, I have never heard
anyone say something negative about gypsies, let alone seen one, and
I have traveled extensively throughout the US, even in farmerman's
state. HERE
they're saying that Gypsies live in urban areas, usually on main street, in the poorer parts of towns. They are not always recognizable as such, especially the men who wear American clothes; however, women, in particular older women, often wear long colorful skirts and low-cut sleeveless blouses. Gypsies often prefer to pass as another ethnic group and may claim to be American Indian, Mexican, or Romanian.

That might be one reason, that most Americans are not aware of them
to live in their city.

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dagmaraka wrote:

I do believe education is the key. I do hope that this court case will translate into widespread changed enforced into primary and secondary education and that in 20-30 years we will be in a very different place.

I also believe that education is the key. Educating the Roma children would speed up the assimilation process considerably.

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well, they don't have to assimilate, as in disappear into the mainstream society. That's probably not what you meant. It would sure help social cohesion and their own advancement in all spheres.

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I like this article too - it appeared in the Earth Times, but it's from DPA, which is the main German press agency. It's pretty unequivocal about what the problem is, but also offers a glimpse of how daunting a challenge it poses.

Quote:

Amnesty International attacks 'segregation' in schools in Slovakia

Amnesty International Thursday called on the authorities in Slovakia to take "swift measures" to end what it described as the "educational segregation" of children of Romany origin. Amnesty's report said huge numbers of Romany children were still being placed "in special schools and classes for children with mental disabilities and learning difficulties, or segregated in Roma-only mainstream schools across the country."

Romany children placed "unnecessarily" in special schools were given a reduced curriculum and had practically no possibilities of reintegrating into mainstream schools or advancing to secondary education, Amnesty said. [..]

The failure of the government to provide adequate education for all Romany children blighted future employment prospects, and added to a "cycle of marginalization and poverty for Roma people."

According to Amnesty, evaluations had shown that up to 50 per cent of Romany children in special schools or classes had been placed there erroneously.

"A child living in a shack with no electricity or running water in the middle of nowhere will not know how to flush a toilet or use a bathroom. Such a child would not know how to hold a pencil or draw a picture or speak Slovak, but this should not deprive them of their basic right to proper education," Duckworth said.

The widespread existence of Roma-only schools and classes was a further concern, the report said. In some parts of eastern Slovakia, 100 per cent of schools were segregated.

The right of parents to choose their child's school appeared "neutral," but in reality it contributed to segregation, Amnesty said.

Parental choice, coupled with the lack of free transportation for Romany children to school had influenced segregation and radically reduced interaction between Roma and other children in Slovakia. [..]

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Urrrgh.

I started out a blank re gypsies, Roma. If anything, I had a positive sort of take, for what reason I don't remember.

I first ran into them in italy, when I was beset as an american tourist, one of the few in March, back then... and beset several times. At first appalled re clinging on to my little money (plus I had other problems); later I became interested... that is, within the same trip became interested.

I see there are probably cultural behaviors - that non roma are targets in - extant for quite a while, but I see those as a chicken and egg thing. What do people do, when they are shunned? And see that those kind of patterns don't have to just be concreted forevermore. The shunning is horrid..

and yet, I assume that all roma don't just want to be all integrated with others, as in zappo... let's educate our children under the MAN? Maybe they don't want to.

Still, mental institutions?

I don't know anything about all this, really, except to surmise there are probably vast numbers wearing blinders, and a lot of talking to be done to lay a groundwork for change, some of which should come soon.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Court ruling sparks fight against Roma education discrimination
16 November 2007, 14:13 CET

<snip>

Moreover, the plight of Slovakia's significant Roma population has worsened since the fall of communism in 1989 with the number of children receiving nursery education crashing from 166,852 to 1,180 between 1988 and 1995 and the drop out rate in primary schools rising from 46.0 percent to 63.0 percent between 1976 and 1999, according to the international human rights watchdog. [..]

I found this pretty stunning. The situation of the Roma is really one of the most glaring failures of the postcommunist system. The new system has badly failed them.

The communists were pretty horrible about the Roma too, of course - up to the forced sterilisations Dag mentioned. But the Roma have really been a major loser of the cultural changes and the switch-over to a market economy since.

Said one community worker, "Kumar Vishwanathan, an Indian-born community worker long recognised for his work within the Roma community [in the Czech Republic]", a couple of months ago (source: Radio Prague):

Quote:

[F]or the past sixteen, seventeen years things have been going from bad to worse for the Roma. Social exclusion has been on the rise, people have lost their jobs - the Roma not being really prepared for the democratic changes and the coming of the free market (they all had jobs under communism). The Roma were the first to lose jobs, lose homes, their education level is very low, so I think that this is a clear sign that the state sees that the problems are really very bad and that something needs to be done." [..]

The only upside is that they've been more free to organise: "The fall of communism saw a rise of Roma organisations, a rise of Roma 'awareness' and Roma identity, and there has also been a kind of compassionate approach from non-Roma to do something for the Roma who are in a very bad situation." But when they've massive lost their jobs, their income, their housing, that's scarce comfort.

And now that the countries with the most Roma are finally in the EU, perversely, much of the support for programs to help them stopped:

Quote:

A lot of NGOs sort of mushroomed until the time the Czech Republic joined the EU, and then a lot of funding stopped and much of the external funds moved to Ukraine and Romania, meaning some NGOs here had to cease. Now, many surviving and small NGOs which have been doing a lot of brave work at the grassroots level hope they will be able to access funds helping them carry on their work.

It's not just funding, it's also that as long as countries were still striving to join the EU, the European Commission still had the power to regularly evaluate their progress on human rights issues and issue warnings or rewards accordingly. Once a country is in, there's weirdly enough much less the EU can actually do.

Thats why this article in the International Herald Tribune is hopeful:

Quote:

EU officials appeal to Czech, Slovak governments to end discrimination of Roma
November 15, 2007
International Herald Tribune

[My Summary:]

EU officials appealed to the Czech Republic and Slovakia to end discrimination against Roma children. The call came after a ruling against the Czech Republic by a European rights court, and the release of an Amnesty International report about the "open segregation" of Roma children in Slovak schools. The court verdict means that legislation in all Council of Europe countries will have to be revised, to ensure that Roma children do not suffer from discrimination.

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farmerman wrote:

I believe I am a bigot when it comes to the Romnichalli and pavee in the US. I dont trust any of em....

Not too many areas of life in which Farmerman and I are going to agree on anything... this is one of them. Gypsies are universally hated and with reason, they think they have some special dispensation from Christ to steal.

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The Master of Myth has arrived. What else have your heard from your head lately Gungasnake?

Do you have a little chorus in your head singing "Jesus Loves Me?"

What was the alleged Jesus doing on the cross? I believe the myth said he was there to die for other people's sins.

I'm really curious, where did the myth of the 4th nail originate. Some barroom?

I think that is has been made quite clear that this thread is about human rights not the ramblings of a YEC.

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gungasnake wrote:

Gypsies are universally hated and with reason, they think they have some special dispensation from Christ to steal.

This kind of "contribution" to the thread just makes me to say that I'm out here.

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Why? It would be stupid to abandon a good thread to the odd bad guy wandering in.. if you do that, then the terrorists win! Eh, I mean.. :wink:

Seriously. It's Gunga. Water off a duck's back.

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Might be on the next page when I don't see that ... :wink:

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Czech Republic: Roma children denied equal education

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