Czech Republic: Roma children denied equal education

farmer, i don't know WHAT your point is, so i have no idea what the research you pointed me is supposed to prove. i am open to learning but you realize you are suggesting using genetic research to support generalizations about a group of people.
if your point is merely that Roma are originally from one group of people, well, so what. nobody's disputing that. so are the slavs. does that mean there are no culturally and historically distinct groups? try telling that to serbs or croats, czechs or slovaks or the poles, see where that gets you. history and culture tend to matter and those differ among different groups within the Roma.
i acknowledge hearing your "get of the moral high ground" - i'm sorry that is your impression, as that was not where i'm coming from. i'm coming from a position of hurt, my reaction to your posts was physical and that happens rarely to me. i have many colleagues, dear friends, one former boyfriend, all of whom are roma. i know their lives, efforts, struggles, dreams.... so if someone barges in and tells me their all thieves and scam artists and goodfornothings, i am gonna take it personally.

it's not so much what you say but how you said it. your admittedly (by you) stereotypical generalizations that you force upon the people i know (even though their situation in life is drastically different from the traveller people here... they are not even travelers to begin with) was personally insulting and hurtful to me. I'm sure that was not your intention, but that is how I felt... whether it matters to you or not.

I have a book for our budding book club too: Youngson, R.M: Scientific Blunders; A Brief History of How Wrong Scientists Can Sometimes Be. It covers 2500 years of biggest scientific blunders, among them the use of genetic science by German nationalists from 1900s to, well, the Holocaust.
But it's never the science alone that is at fault. It's what it's used for.
so tell me again, what point of yours does the research showing congenital disorders and mutations in Roma prove? And why should that matter to my work or to the case of Roma children not getting equal education?

Perhaps that is my biggest confusion. I have asked you twice what is the reason for you posting what you did in this thread? I heard "they" are thieves and scoundrels and since they're all one group genetically it applies to the Roma everywhere. You said it doesn't mean the Roma children shouldn't get equal education, but you did not say what it does mean or why you felt it was necessary to post your generalizations here -how do they apply to the topic of this thread. I guess I'll never know, since you're "outta here" due to our moral high ground.

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Slovak MEPs: Slovakia Has to Urgently Deal With Roma Issue
Strasbourg, November 15 (TASR-SLOVAKIA) - Slovakia urgently has to deal with the Roma issue and particularly with the education of Roma children, several Slovak female MEPs concurred on Thursday in reaction to an Amnesty International (AI) report published in Strasbourg that criticises Slovakia.

Slovakia has been a constant target of AI criticism in this area since the mid-1990s. However, the Roma issue isn't the only problem for Slovakia, which stands accused of systematic violation of Roma children's rights for education.

According to MEP Anna Zaborska, the current situation is retribution for misguided Roma-related policies during the Communist era, when Roma culture was destroyed and the co-existence of Roma and the white population failed to materialise. In Zaborska's opinion, a big problem in this connection is the insufficient patience.

"There have been many programmes and quite a lot of money invested with a view to changing this situation. The only thing that was missing, was patience, because when they didn't manage to change the situation in one or two years, they changed the programme and invested another money. I think that education, work, and patience are the three things that will help to get Roma out of this situation," said Zaborska.

According to Edit Bauer (SMK), her colleague in the European Parliament, this problem is a time bomb for Slovakia.

"Slovak authorities should think about how to continue. The segregation of Roma children isn't a good solution, and neither is sending them to special schools due to their insufficient socialisation," said Bauer.

MEP Irena Belohorska assumes that Roma issue should be solved through helping Roma children in the way some of the non-governmental, or female organisations, or also towns and villages do it, when they organise pre-school facilities, where the children gain necessary habits. Belohorska says that this problem won't be solved through Roma political parties, or Government proxy for Roma issues.

"Slovaks have to finally comprehend that it's a problem that we have to resolve by ourselves. Now it's up to us to find the way how we do it with a help from outside, but first of all with the help of the Roma themselves. The situation is urgent," said Belohorska, adding that more engagement by psychologists and sociologists would be appropriate.

ma/tm/tb

source: TASR http://www.tasr.sk/30.axd?k=20071115TBB00506

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Court ruling sparks fight against Roma education discrimination
16 November 2007, 14:13 CET

(PRAGUE) - The Czech Republic's condemnation by the European Union's human rights watchdog for discrimination against the Roma minority in its schools has relaunched moves this week to win them a better education deal across Central and Eastern Europe.

The pan-European body's Court of Human Rights ruled that 18 children from the eastern city of Ostrava were subjected to "discriminatory treatment" on "the basis of their Roma origins" when they were sent to "special" schools.

The ruling is "a legal equivalent of an earthquake, its reverberations will be felt for years," according to James Goldston, a New York lawyer working for The Open Society foundation's Justice Initiative, which seeks legal means to boost human rights.

By 13 votes to four, the court concluded on Tuesday that article 14 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which bans all forms of discrimination, was violated, and ordered 14,000 euros (20,500 dollars) in damages and costs to each child.

The court, based in Strasbourg, France, noted that the Czech Republic is not alone in this practice and that discriminatory barriers to education for Roma children exist in a number of European countries.

While recognising Czech government efforts to remedy the situation, the ruling underlined "the disproportionately high number" of Roma children sent to "special schools" reserved for those with learning problems and unable to follow a normal education.

In the Czech Republic, more than one Roma child in two is directed towards such schools and the chances of finding one of them there is 27 times higher than for any other child, according to figures from the European Roma Rights Centre (ERRC).

The court, which accepted non-official figures provided by the complainants, also expressed doubts about the tests used to stream children to such institutions and said that parental consent was not a sufficient safeguard.

"This is a major step forward in Europe's fight against discrimination," said ERRC director Vera Egenberger during a news conference in Prague held to "give the widest possible publicity to this historic judgement."

For Goldston, the ruling is decisive because "it clearly states that Roma children should have the same access to quality education as others," adding that "other European states" faces the same problems in living up to that challenge as the Czechs.

"Physical separation" of Roma children in schools exists above all in Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, either through special schools, separate classes, or majority Roma "ghetto schools," according to the ERCC.

In Slovakia, more than half of Roma children are "erroneously" educated in remedial special schools, according to a report published by Amnesty International this week in Bratislava. Only 3.0 percent of Roma children get a secondary education and 0.3 percent a university degree, it added.

Moreover, the plight of Slovakia's significant Roma population has worsened since the fall of communism in 1989 with the number of children receiving nursery education crashing from 166,852 to 1,180 between 1988 and 1995 and the drop out rate in primary schools rising from 46.0 percent to 63.0 percent between 1976 and 1999, according to the international human rights watchdog.

For Marketa Mikova, one of the Czech complainants at Strasbourg, the court judgement is "a massive victory." Although Julius, the eldest child at the origin of her complaint, now aged 19 and unemployed, is too old to benefit, her youngest six-year-old son "still has every chance" of doing so.
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1195210925.23

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dag, what is the Roma population in Slovakia? My guess is between 1 or 2 %,
which should make it an easy undertaking to integrate the Roma children
into the Slovak school system.

Are the Romas segregated in Romania, Bulgaria and Hungry as well?

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Yes, that is the conclusion of the reports - czech republic, slovakia, romania, bulgaria...

In Slovakia, the official percentage is around 2%. However, most Roma do not register their ethnicity in the census as Roma, but rather as Slovak or Hungarian. Unofficial estimates put their numbers up to close to 10% of population. Slovakia has the highest percentage of the Roma in a state, but nobody will tell you an accurate number.
It's of course controversial and tricky. On the one hand, everyone has the right to choose their ethnicity. On the other, discrimination does not go by the written ethnicity. It goes by looks.... so the affected children have various official ethnicities on paper.

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CalamityJane wrote:

dag, what is the Roma population in Slovakia? My guess is between 1 or 2 %,

Far more. The official census has the percentage of Roma in Slovakia at 1,7%, but for a variety of reasons this number is widely considered to be a gross underestimation, and the real share is considered to be 7-10%:

Quote:

According to national census data from 2001, the total population of Slovakia at that time was 5,379,455.6 The same census results stated the Roma population to be 89,920, which accounts for 1.7 per cent, while 99,448 respondents stated their mother tongue as Romanes, while self-identifying as different ethnicities. Census data is based on the respondents' self-identification. As in several neighbouring countries, there are several reasons why many Roma in Slovakia do not officially adhere to the Roma ethnicity. Official demographic data, as well as that specifically related to education, are therefore of little relevance to the monitoring of government policies as well as to new policymaking.

Other sets of data have been used since 2001 to provide for a more accurate account of the size and characteristics of the Roma population. The Office of the Slovak Government Plenipotentiary for Roma Affairs estimates the Roma population at 320,000, based on official demographic assessments and its own data from a Sociographic Mapping of Roma Communities.

According to another assessment last relevant official data on the Roma population were collected in 1980. According to a model based on these data the Roma population in 2002 could be calculated at some 390,000 people, or 7.3 per cent of the total population.

The recent OSI/Education Support Program study "Monitoring Education for Roma 2006: A Statistical Baseline for Central, Eastern, and South Eastern Europe" gives an unofficial calculation for Roma in Slovakia ranging from between 480,000-520,000, and accounting for 9.26 per cent of the population.

Thats of the overall population. But because of social, economical and cultural reasons, Roma have more children and die younger than other Slovaks. Because of that, children of schoolgoing age make up some 30-40% of the total Roma population; while children of schoolgoing age make up just 23% of the total population. So when you look at children and teenagers, the percentage of Roma is still higher - between 10-20%:

Quote:

The authors of a 2002 survey report commissioned by the Government and undertaken by the Methodological-pedagogical Centre in Preov (hereafter, MPC Preov) state that there was an average increase in the number of Roma children enrolled in primary education of six per cent between 1996 and 2000. In 1996 the proportion of Roma children enrolled in their first year of compulsory schooling was 11.12 per cent. [..]

The estimated number of children enrolled in compulsory education at the end of 2002 was 732,300 children, of which 99,400 (13.6 per cent) were Roma. 20 Research suggests that by 2025 the proportion of Roma children will rise from 14 per cent (in 2002) to 17 per cent.

Source

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Those quotes are from a new report by the Open Society Institute (OSI) about the access (or lack of access) that Roma have to good education in Slovakia, which was presented at a press conference just yesterday! Timely, eh? Cool

The press conference was both for the OSI report and a report by Amnesty International on the same subject. Here are the reports:

Open Society Institute: Equal Access to Quality Education for Roma in Slovakia

Amnesty International: Still Separate, still Unequal: Violations of the Right to Education for Romani Children in Slovakia

The OSI report is part of a series of monitoring reports that are being published on Roma access to education in different Central and East European countries - including Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, CJ:

Equal Access to Quality Education for Roma

Take a look and tell me what you think, I'd be very interested.

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what also matters is that they are concentrated largely in Eastern Slovakia. So while there may only be a few in some areas and many are integrated in urban areas fully, there are regions where Roma are well over 20% of population.
In the East, many were pushed out from the villages and live in seggregated ghettos. Some of them lack in basic infrastructure. These settlements will often have 90-95% unemployment rate, so the issues tend to snowball - alcohol and drug addiction, and poor health among the biggest concerns.
Due to their cultural divisions, the Roma political parties were not able to unite on one platform and thus their voice is not represented on national level in politics, other than through government appointed office on the Roma... who is not accepted by many of the Roma as a representative anyway.
Plus, directly due to the discriminatory education policies (decades of), there is an alarming lack of educated leadership within the Roma - there is a lack of teachers who would speak Romani, lack of elected officials on all levels, lack of scholars... you name it.
It is changing slowly, this court decision being an important contribution within the process. There are experimental classes focused on integration of the Roma - catching them up with Slovak language, or alternative schooling in Roma and Slovak or immersion classes ... but those are anecdotal experiences, not a strategy.

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Ha, leave it to nimh to come speedily with facts and data! Thanks.

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nimh wrote:

Those quotes are from a new report by the Open Society Institute (OSI) about the access (or lack of access) that Roma have to good education in Slovakia, which was presented at a press conference just yesterday! Timely, eh?

The press conference was both for the OSI report and a report by Amnesty International on the same subject. Here are the reports:

Open Society Institute: Equal Access to Quality Education for Roma in Slovakia

Amnesty International: Still Separate, still Unequal: Violations of the Right to Education for Romani Children in Slovakia

The OSI report is part of a series of monitoring reports that are being published on Roma access to education in different Central and East European countries - including Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, CJ:

Equal Access to Quality Education for Roma

Take a look and tell me what you think, I'd be very interested.

I posted the Guardian's article about that on the previous page - it has been published in the print edition quite eye-catching:

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Hey Dag, do you know who Tibor Horvath is? Chairman of the Roma Union? Are they connected to the government, or a government party, by any chance?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I posted the Guardian's article about that on the previous page - it has been published in the print edition quite eye-catching:

Yes, the reports have gotten good press coverage!

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nimh wrote:

Hey Dag, do you know who Tibor Horvath is? Chairman of the Roma Union? Are they connected to the government, or a government party, by any chance?

how did you know? Laughing

yes, he is MP in Kosice city government, and he ran for SMER, SF, ĽS-HZDS, SNS coalition (enough said...)
He's also a very unpleasant and arrogant bastard if it is the same Tibor Horvath I know.

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Quote:

I have a book for our budding book club too: Youngson, R.M: Scientific Blunders; A Brief History of How Wrong Scientists Can Sometimes Be. It covers 2500 years of biggest scientific blunders, among them the use of genetic science by German nationalists from 1900s to, well, the Holocaust

JEEZUS H KRISE. Now Im a NAzi. The 2500 years of science blunders includes "great" ideas like Leonardos Leicester Codex and the understanding of "vis plastica".

The genetics that I speak of is at the molecular level and has traced the population roots and dispersal. Youve conveniently covered your first stament as it was a pronouncement of all the various groups of Roma. I said , from a pretty sound genetic basis (max Planck Institute and others) that the STR/genetic markers/and unique mutations make the Roma as clearly discernable as the AMish(another separatist group)

Please dont build your morality ladder any higher, I cant stand the pummeling now that Im a Nazi Sympathizer .

Ive suffered many family members whove been taken by Romnachalli groups posing as salesmen (had an entire block in Reading Pa where elderly people had their money stolen by teams of gypsies who kept the homeowners busy at the front while they entered a cellar window and steal. We just had a series of incidents this year when an encampment moved into a public campground and began stealing farm equipment. Then theyd go and sell the "hot" equipment to similar minded farmers, and then theyd come and steal the equipment away from the farmers who bought the Hot tools.
They followed the group down to somewhere in South CArolina (where many Roma families live like kings off ill gotten gains.

The teachings of the Roma v the gadje are as bad as the Sheii against non Sheii "infidels" .

Dag, if your thesis is in some area of sociology , Id suggest opening boxes to knowledhge that you may want to deny at this point.
If your family's past had horse thieves , make a study of why, dont deny they existed.

Roma exalt cleverness and street smarts, they , in the US at least, also celebrate bunco artistry.

Now I guess Im Pol Pot.

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i didn't say anything about you being a Nazi. I asked WHY and HOW is what you're posting relevant to the topic of this thread. this is the fourth time.

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to spare you the repeating: I hear you saying that you have suffered scams.

You still didn't tell me how is this

Quote:

I said , from a pretty sound genetic basis (max Planck Institute and others) that the STR/genetic markers/and unique mutations make the Roma as clearly discernable as the AMish(another separatist group)

relevant to my previous work or to the situation of the Roma in Central Europe today. I haven't denied or even tried to deny any of that research... I have not read it, so do not patronize me, especially if you so detest coming from the high ground. Since you have no idea about my work, why don't you avoid suggesting which routes should I take. Thank you.

I am not writing any thesis on Roma, I merely worked with Roma communities for years. Back then I studied it extensively. I am all for extra education....

Finally: the Roma in Central Europe are vastly different from those in the U.S., genetics or not. I know little about those in the U.S. and cannot make comments on how your observations apply or not here. We are discussing Central Europe. When you're trying to apply your blanket statements to ALL Roma everywhere, well I CAN tell you you're dead wrong.

Now if you don't mind, I will stick to the topic of this thread.

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Mr. Farmerman,

Dag has called you on your sh**, and you are not man enough to recognize that you are totally out of line and apologize to her for insulting her intelligence.

What is happening in Slovakia is a Slovakia issue and has absolutely nothing to do with what happened to your mother. It is not your place to take Dag to task.

The issue here is out and out discrimination. How soon we forget the holocost, how soon we forget the civil rights movement and last but not least Mr. Farmerman, what about human rights.

Repression is always on the march and it comes in many guises. Religion, science, politics et al. Responsible human beings are responsible for the survival of mankind. Perhaps you can think of a final solution for folks that are not geneticaly wired correctly according to your text books, but no one called you a Natzi.

I am not europeon, but I have been married to a man that is, and have lived close to the europeon community for 40 years and have learned a lot about mans inhumanity to man.

Shame on you Mr. Farmerman

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farmerman wrote:

Dag, if your thesis is in some area of sociology , Id suggest opening boxes to knowledhge that you may want to deny at this point.

Wait. Lemme get this right.

Dag didnt just study Roma from the books for years - she's also, as she mentioned, worked with Roma up-close for years. Right?

On your part, you offer negative personal anecdotes; newspaper "headlines after headlines"; and finally, a riff on genetics, which might possibly be interesting in its own right, but of which you havent made clear at any time what your point with it is. (What's the genetics supposed to tell us here? It shows that the Roma are originally from the Indian subcontinent, yes, and?, I mean, what's any of it have to tell us about the subject of the thread?)

OK. So there's a difference of expertise here, then - and thats perfectly fine, since it's Able2Know and we're here to learn from others' expertise. But instead, you are lecturing Dag on how 'it really is' with the Roma, and what she should look into?

And then you turn around again, and complain that she's talking down to you?

I dont get it..

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dagmaraka wrote:

yes, he is MP in Kosice city government, and he ran for SMER, SF, ĽS-HZDS, SNS coalition (enough said...)

Thanks. I was wondering.

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Sglass wrote:

Perhaps you can think of a final solution for folks that are not geneticaly wired correctly according to your text books

I'm sure Farmer doesnt have anything up with any kind of "final solution", and he never said anything like that - and right, Dag never called him a Nazi. We all know he aint one.

But I dont buy Farmer's victim act either. I mean, yes, the Roma were Holocausted just like the Jews -- and you try going into a thread about the Jews only to, first, expound at length about how you think they're all rotten, and then, dig into an analysis of their genetic makeup. Even if no link's ever made, I'm betting the reception you'd get there would make our responses look like a picnic.

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Czech Republic: Roma children denied equal education

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