Waterboarding

"If YOUR child could be saved,". A dumb hypothetical question. Torture gets people to say what torturers want to hear but not useful intelligence. It prodecues confessions like that of Khalid Sheikh Muhammed who would have confessed to killing Nicole Simpson if that was what his torturers wanted him to confess to. Torture is immoral and illegal but also useless. After WW2 the Nazis were prosecuted for using the same enhanced torture techniques Bushie is accused of using. link

Cycloptichorn wrote:

woiyo wrote:

Stop being dramatic and please provide a direct answer to a simple question.

I don't think "dropping nuclear waste" is a serious answer to a fundemental question.

Neither is 'your kids are being held hostage.' It's not a real-world situation.

No, I wouldn't torture someone to save a family member. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

The ends don't justify the means, ever. Do you disagree with this?

Cycloptichorn

No, I do not agree in times of war. I also understand and accept, the risks to our soldiers. Yet, if information gathered can save American lives, by all means, use all EFFECTIVE methods known (effective is the key word). Beatings, psycological methods have proven to be not very effective since one will say anything to "make it stop".

This is why it is so important to have a govt that understand the impact of military conflicts. We do not have one now and I am not sure the candidates running will be any better.

What techniques should be used?

woiyo, no torture techniques should be used. America should obey international laws we not only have signed onto but largely wrote ourselves after WW2. That includes laws against the kind of preemptive war Bushie lied us into in Iraq. My opinion is the USA should stop persecuting people around the world as the first salvo in a real war on terrorism.

Maybe Walter can tell us what they teach in his homeland, since neither you or any other American has a clue .

CIA officials say the most effective use of waterboarding was in breaking Khalid Sheikh Muhammed, who ultimately took responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and other al Qaeda terror plots including the beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. A senior CIA official says that it was only because of waterboarding that Mohammed talked.

"woiyo, no torture techniques should be used." That was answer enough to your question. In the article I posted there is this, "The Israelis, Baer said, have learned that they can gain valuable information by establishing personal relationships with the inmates and gaining their trust.

"They found that torture, abusive tactics, made things overall worse for them politically," Baer said. "The Israelis are friendly with their prisoners. They play cards with them and allow them to contact their families. They are getting in their minds to determine what makes up a suicide bomber."

Two-thirds of the Address is devoted to domestic matters and the rise of political parties, and Washington set out his vision of what would make the United States a truly great nation. He called for men to put aside party and unite for the common good, an "American character" wholly free of foreign attachments. The United States must concentrate only on American interests, and while the country ought to be friendly and open its commerce to all nations, it should avoid becoming involved in foreign wars. Contrary to some opinion, Washington did not call for isolation, only the avoidance of entangling alliances. While he called for maintenance of the treaty with France signed during the American Revolution, the problems created by that treaty ought to be clear. The United States must "act for ourselves and not for others."

"... while the country ought to be friendly and open its commerce to all nations, it should avoid becoming involved in foreign wars."

Quote:

Two-thirds of the Address is devoted to domestic matters and the rise of political parties, and Washington set out his vision of what would make the United States a truly great nation. He called for men to put aside party and unite for the common good, an "American character" wholly free of foreign attachments. The United States must concentrate only on American interests, and while the country ought to be friendly and open its commerce to all nations, it should avoid becoming involved in foreign wars. Contrary to some opinion, Washington did not call for isolation, only the avoidance of entangling alliances. While he called for maintenance of the treaty with France signed during the American Revolution, the problems created by that treaty ought to be clear. The United States must "act for ourselves and not for others."

Source: The United States Department of State

Walter Hinteler wrote:

"... while the country ought to be friendly and open its commerce to all nations, it should avoid becoming involved in foreign wars."

Pretty Smart Stuff, right?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

woiyo wrote:

Stop being dramatic and please provide a direct answer to a simple question.

I don't think "dropping nuclear waste" is a serious answer to a fundemental question.

Neither is 'your kids are being held hostage.' It's not a real-world situation.

No, I wouldn't torture someone to save a family member. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

The ends don't justify the means, ever. Do you disagree with this?

Cycloptichorn

No, I do not agree in times of war. I also understand and accept, the risks to our soldiers. Yet, if information gathered can save American lives, by all means, use all EFFECTIVE methods known (effective is the key word). Beatings, psycological methods have proven to be not very effective since one will say anything to "make it stop".

This is why it is so important to have a govt that understand the impact of military conflicts. We do not have one now and I am not sure the candidates running will be any better.

Many Right-wingers have a hard time differentiating between reality and 24.

Cycloptichorn

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Wait. Did Dana Perino misspeak?

Q: Is it ever reasonable to restrict constitutional freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism?


MS. PERINO: In our opinion, no.

Wow. That statement likely caused the ears of anyone who's ever read the Patriot Act, or been a fan of the Constitutional protections against unlawful search and seizure, or worried that tapping everyone's phone without warrant or cause might not be such a hot idea, or thought habeas corpus was a good thing, to prick up at that moment. To say nothing of the people who today enjoyed a leisurely afternoon in a foreign prison with a wet towel wedged halfway down their windpipe.

But not so fast, you naive lovers of what was once known as "liberty." Perino's talking about the restrictions of constitutional freedoms in Pakistan, where the President's personal friend Pervez Musharraf has declared a state of emergency rule, suspending that country's constitution. Not to worry, though. While Bush has yet to place a phone call to the Pakistani dictator, he's unleashed the full force of what the Executive Branch does best:

PERINO: We are currently reviewing our aid. The President has been following this issue very closely. He has been given updates by the Director of National Intelligence over the weekend, his national security team and, of course, Secretary Rice. Pakistan is a strong fighter against terrorists and we have to keep that in mind as we move forward. But our aid package is currently being reviewed. And Secretary Rice has been urging President Musharraf, on behalf of the President, to return quickly to civilian rule.

With such a robust package of reviewing stuff, monitoring other stuff, compliment feeding and "urging" through surrogates, is there really any doubt that things are going to improve in Pakistan with a quickness?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/05/the-gift-that-keeps-on-gi_n_71267.html

Quote:

Wait. Did Dana Perino misspeak?

Q: Is it ever reasonable to restrict constitutional freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism?


MS. PERINO: In our opinion, no.

Wow. That statement likely caused the ears of anyone who's ever read the Patriot Act, or been a fan of the Constitutional protections against unlawful search and seizure, or worried that tapping everyone's phone without warrant or cause might not be such a hot idea, or thought habeas corpus was a good thing, to prick up at that moment. To say nothing of the people who today enjoyed a leisurely afternoon in a foreign prison with a wet towel wedged halfway down their windpipe.

But not so fast, you naive lovers of what was once known as "liberty." Perino's talking about the restrictions of constitutional freedoms in Pakistan, where the President's personal friend Pervez Musharraf has declared a state of emergency rule, suspending that country's constitution. Not to worry, though. While Bush has yet to place a phone call to the Pakistani dictator, he's unleashed the full force of what the Executive Branch does best:

PERINO: We are currently reviewing our aid. The President has been following this issue very closely. He has been given updates by the Director of National Intelligence over the weekend, his national security team and, of course, Secretary Rice. Pakistan is a strong fighter against terrorists and we have to keep that in mind as we move forward. But our aid package is currently being reviewed. And Secretary Rice has been urging President Musharraf, on behalf of the President, to return quickly to civilian rule.

With such a robust package of reviewing stuff, monitoring other stuff, compliment feeding and "urging" through surrogates, is there really any doubt that things are going to improve in Pakistan with a quickness?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/05/the-gift-that-keeps-on-gi_n_71267.html

The disconnect from reality! How do sentient humans manage this? Tico, McG, MM, Baldimo, Woiyo, Okie, et al, how do you manage this and function day to day? Oh, how could I have possibly forgotten georgeob1!

It is so unfathomable. I really would like to understand how this can be done.