Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 02:36 am
Say what you like, I seems to me you just don't know what fights to pick and/or what wars to wage.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
For all of the mocking afforded the "Shock & Awe" strategy of the Iraqi campaign, it was entirely sensible, and it ultimately worked. The first part of the Iraqi War - defeating Saddam and his armies - worked like a charm.

The second part you mean. The first part was when we DID NOT find WMDs. The first part was a failure, the second part was a well designed consolation prize. The third part isn't going that well either: Martial law, Warlords, disorder. Enjoy the participation trophy.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
While you, in a fit of self-indulgent pique cried Strawman, the reference I made to the dilemma of the truly pacifist was cogent to the issue.

Nonsense. The pacifist has nothing to do with this argument. I don't have to be a pacifist to believe torture is wrong. I can whole heartedly believe that there exists situations where our government in the intrest of it's people or in the global intrest of providing support to other countries will use millitary force. I just don't believe that torture is a justified practice in war nor do I see my interests being secured my my government's choice to torture people. This is NOT black and white, or should I say "this is not just black."

Has the US actually helped the situation in the middle east? Are we safer now than we were september 10th, 2001?

No, and no. Torture is effective! Great! I'm not any safer, and neither are you. We're not safer and we've sacrificed our dignity in the name of fear.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
History doesn't believe all is fair in war?

What does that mean?

First of all, so facile a statement cannot be substantiated.

Secondly, history comes after the fact, and should deal only with facts. It has no business applying the personal morality of its historians.

Do you deny that man has formed treaties outlining the rule of engaugement?

Do you deny the FACT that this has happened several times, and that consequences have befallen those you violate that code?

Human history is clear, we find that even in conflict we have our limitations as to what is acceptable. Those limitations sometimes come from others, and other times they come from within.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Ultimately people are free to form whatever opinions they wish, and in a democracy enough of them can assure that their shared opinion becomes the law of the land, but that is a far cry from establishing moral superiority, and there is nothing immoral about disagreeing with any given law and advocating it's change.


Free to form opinions, not to do whatever they wish. What is unethical however is acting as if law has already changed before it is. If you want the law changed so that we can hold people without trial and punish them or torture them, call your congressman or congresswoman and tell them then wait. But until then, it's unethical, and by my standard, quite immoral given what law you wish to overturn.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If one tortures someone simply for sadistic pleasure that is quite different than torturing them in an attempt to save lives.

No difference to the person being tortured.

Quote:
="Finn dAbuzz "If a nation fights a war in defense of its homeland, that is quite different than fighting it for conquest - however the difference is only in the intent, not the results.

And here I thought we were on a "crusade." I was blissfully unaware that our "homeland" wa being defended. I just got a little bounce in my step from that little gem. Rub your eyes, put on your glasses, we're not playing defense, we're on the offense.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Of course all is fair in war.

Polly want a Cracker?

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 11:07 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Uh, what country are you living in? Here in America, we did pass a bill which prohibits waterboarding - the McCain amendment to the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005.


Well, I've done a little digging, and found an article written by Andrew McCarthy in October, 2007, in the National Review, which sounds remarkable similar to what I've been saying.

Quote:
SO IS WATERBOARDING TORTURE?
Again, we do not know the details of waterboarding as practiced (if, as reported, it is or has been practiced) by the CIA. Yet, we know generally that waterboarding is very rough stuff. It is not especially painful physically and causes no lasting bodily injury; yet, it is intended to create the sensation of drowning in a person who is bound and temporarily suffocated. Administered by someone who knows what he is doing, there is presumably no actual threat of drowning or suffocation; for the victim, though, there is clearly fear of imminent death and he could pass out from the deprivation of oxygen.

The sensation is temporary, not prolonged. There shouldn't be much debate that subjecting someone to it repeatedly would cause the type of mental anguish required for torture. But what about doing it once, twice, or some number of instances that were not prolonged or extensive?

Reasonable minds can and do differ on this. Personally, I don't believe it qualifies. It is not in the nature of the barbarous sadism universally condemned as torture, an ignominy the law, as we've seen, has been patently careful not to trivialize or conflate with lesser evils. The Washington Post and Sen. Edward Kennedy have pointed to a World War II era war crimes prosecution by the U.S. against a Japanese soldier who used what was described as "water torture" on an American civilian. But they've failed to note that this was far from the only conduct at issue; the soldier was also charged with having engaged, over a sustained period of time, in "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; … burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward." The case hardly stands for the proposition that isolated instances of waterboarding would be torture.

Moreover, American military and intelligence services reportedly use (or, at least, have used) waterboarding in their counter-interrogation training programs. Congress carved no exception into torture law for such exercises. Consequently, a conclusion that waterboarding is torture would be tantamount to a finding that our own services are committing a heinous felony, the equivalent of a war crime, against our own operatives ?- something I believe it is fair to say Congress cannot possibly have intended.

IS WATERBOARDING A VIOLATION OF THE McCAIN AMENDMENT?
One might think the question whether waterboarding is torture should be academic. After all, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment is also unlawful. Given that waterboarding is close enough to torture that reasonable minds can differ on whether it is torture, one would figure waterboarding must, a fortiori, qualify as CID. I believe that is certainly true the vast majority of the time. But the matter is not so cut and dried that we can responsibly say it is true all of the time. And the reason for this is that Congress, which has had countless opportunities to make simulated drowning illegal, has declined to do so.

In late 2005, after revelations about the "torture memo" and against the backdrop of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, Congress enacted the McCain Amendment as part of the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA). That Amendment eviscerates any contention (based on the theory that the Constitution does not have extra-territorial reach) that CID prohibitions do not apply overseas. The McCain Amendment, however, continued to define CID in accordance with the Fifth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments. As a result, one can argue that it does not undermine the contention that those protections apply only to civilian legal proceedings, not to the detention and interrogation of alien enemy combatants in wartime.

While this admittedly technical contention remains colorable, I doubt it would or should prevail. Whatever one thinks of Senator McCain's amendment, it was indisputably a reaction to concerns over wartime detentions. It would be bizarre to think Congress went through such an exercise only to pass something that was irrelevant to the problem it sought to address. Nonetheless, it is noteworthy that, although waterboarding figured prominently in the McCain Amendment debate, Congress opted not to end any ambiguity over its legality; instead, it chose to stick with banning "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" ?- simulated drowning was not specified.

The consequence of this impossible vagueness was to grind interrogations to a halt. Indeed, some intelligence officers purchased litigation insurance, fearful that actions they'd taken based on Justice Department advice might nevertheless lead to investigations and ruinous legal expenses.

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court decided the Hamdan case, holding that the Geneva Conventions' Common Article 3 ?- which the Court found to be incorporated into a statute, the Uniform Code of Military Justice ?- provided some protection for enemy combatants. The narrow issue in Hamdan was military commissions, not interrogations. Common Article 3, however, broadly prohibits not only irregular tribunals but also, among other things, "violence to life and person," "torture," "cruel treatment," and "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment." So, the question naturally arose, did Common Article 3 now govern all detention and interrogation? And if so, who gets to decide what its terms mean? Would the United States be bound by, say, the International Court of Justice's construction of such vague terms as "outrages upon personal dignity"?

Clarification was imperative for this confused landscape. Congress endeavored to provide it in 2006 when it passed the Military Commissions Act. The MCA made clear that issues of detention and interrogation would be controlled not by Common Article 3 but by American law: specifically, the McCain Amendment.

Furthermore, recognizing that our intelligence officers needed guidelines more precise than the vaporous injunction to avoid "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment, Congress amended the War Crimes Act (Section 2441 of Title 18, U.S. Code) to specify which "grave breaches" of international law could give rise to criminal prosecution. The list is long but once again (and despite the specter of waterboarding that hung over the debate) Congress elected to include "torture" and "cruel or inhumane treatment," but not simulated drowning ?- or, in fact, degrading treatment, even though it, of course, is illegal under the McCain amendment.

So is waterboarding illegal? It is ironic, and quite typical Washington fare, that the same elected officials now demanding a definitive answer from Judge Mukasey have failed to give us one themselves
?- though some of them, unlike Mukasey, are aware of classified details. Alas and alack, it is all too familiar that chatterers who should know better, like Prof. Turley, are so quick to caricature and demagogue a complex issue in order to call attention to themselves.

It is perilous to launch when one doesn't know key facts. Moreover, given the stakes for our intelligence officers, Mukasey has been wise to avoid doing so despite railing from the peanut gallery. But I'll hazard an opinion: Waterboarding should be considered illegal, under the McCain Amendment, in almost all instances. Certainly, it would be unlawful to make it a programmatic approach to interrogations; if there is a sliver of legality at all, it must be reserved for good-faith emergencies.

That line of reasoning would ban just about all waterboarding. Should Mukasey be more categorical than that? Why shouldn't he just go with the flow and say, yes, by all means, waterboarding is always and everywhere unlawful? Well, because it might not be true. The senators on the Judiciary Committee were rather insistent that an attorney-general nominee have the moxie to tell the president what the law is, no matter what the president might want to hear. Does the same principle not also hold true for United States senators?

On this issue, the Congress has not given us clear guidance. It has instead given us the Fifth Amendment and told us to go figure out what that means for ourselves. That is not very helpful.

For example, in its 2000 Dickerson decision, the Supreme Court held that the core Fifth Amendment guarantee against coerced confessions now includes Miranda protections. Do we thus owe alien enemy combatants captured in wartime an immediate right to counsel, present during all questioning, at the American people's expense? Does anyone really doubt there are federal judges ?- perhaps many of them ?- who would reason that McCain Amendment bars all coercive interrogation forbidden by the Fifth Amendment and, therefore, that it requires Miranda warnings for enemy prisoners?

Let us assume, though, that the McCain Amendment's incorporation of the Fifth Amendment is directed at what is more commonly conceived of as cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment. That means we are left to ask: Does the particular use of any technique shock the conscience?

So here is the question: If we captured a top al Qaeda operative who was certain to have information about what we reasonably believed was an imminent plan to attack midtown Manhattan with a nuclear weapon, would it shock your conscience if an intelligence officer waterboarded that operative in a desperate attempt to thwart the attack and save thousands of lives?


Read this article, and you are both wrong.

As I said earlier, the debate exists so that torture can continue; on suspects who have nothing to do with scare scenarios. There is no real debate over the legality of torture.

McCarthy says:

Quote:
It is perilous to launch when one doesn't know key facts. Moreover, given the stakes for our intelligence officers, Mukasey has been wise to avoid doing so despite railing from the peanut gallery. But I'll hazard an opinion: Waterboarding should be considered illegal, under the McCain Amendment, in almost all instances. Certainly, it would be unlawful to make it a programmatic approach to interrogations; if there is a sliver of legality at all, it must be reserved for good-faith emergencies.


What defines 'good faith emergencies?' What if you torture the prisoner, and he knew nothing about the emergency? Are you still responsible for torturing him? The answer is, of course. Of course you are.

As I've said in other threads, you should realize that the president has the authority to order laws broken. He can tell people to torture to get info. He just cannot ignore the consequences of doing so, and part of those consequences may be judgment that he broke the law without merit. You and others seek to remove the consequences of decisions, by making those actions (which are universally agreed to be exceedingly rare ones, when used appropriately) legal before they are taken. This is ridiculous.

The legal challenges against Bush administration officials will go on for years. Yoo is already being sued and Addington won't be far behind. Hope that jail treats both of them well. Or better yet, subject them to the sorts of things that they say aren't torture.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-padilla080104,1,6749180.story?track=rss

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 12:27 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The legal challenges against Bush administration officials will go on for years. Yoo is already being sued and Addington won't be far behind. Hope that jail treats both of them well. Or better yet, subject them to the sorts of things that they say aren't torture.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-padilla080104,1,6749180.story?track=rss

Cycloptichorn


Any lawsuit against Yoo seems destined to be dismissed at the summary judgment stage, if not a motion to dismiss. All he probably needs to show is that he was acting in his official capacity, and there was a good faith and reasonable basis for his legal opinion ... he will have immunity -- absolute or qualified -- from this suit.

And you aren't so naive as to think jail is a possible sanction arising out of that lawsuit, are you?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 01:09 pm
I think we need to define what torture actually is before we can decide whats illegal.
Is waterboarding torture?
It might be, I dont know.

The problem is that so many of the people against torture have defined almost every interrogation technique as torture.

So let me ask these questions...

Is sleep deprivation torture?
Is sensory deprivation torture?
Is the playing of loud music 24 hours a day in a cell considered torture?
What about leaving a bright light burning in a cell 24 hours a day,is that torture?


All of those actions have been condemned as torture by different people, and those same people are opposed to waterboarding.

If all of those techniques constitute torture,then what interrogation methods can be used that arent torture?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 01:17 pm
mysteryman wrote:
I think we need to define what torture actually is before we can decide whats illegal.


Why? Why should "we" (who ever that might be) not use the definition already excisting - and signed in a treaty by the USA? (Convention Against Torture [and Universal Declaration of Human Rights])
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 01:33 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I think we need to define what torture actually is before we can decide whats illegal.


Why? Why should "we" (who ever that might be) not use the definition already excisting - and signed in a treaty by the USA? (Convention Against Torture [and Universal Declaration of Human Rights])


My point was that to many people, the other techniques I listed are also torture.
My question is, are they actually torture?

If you want to go to the extreme, ANY interrogation technique can be considered torture, no matter how benign it might seem to be.

It just seems to me that as long as it doesnt violate the Convention against Torture that any techniques used should be OK.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 01:50 pm
mysteryman wrote:
If you want to go to the extreme, ANY interrogation technique can be considered torture, no matter how benign it might seem to be.

It just seems to me that as long as it doesnt violate the Convention against Torture that any techniques used should be OK.


Many are, e.g. those methods, sometimes termed "disorientation" or "sensory deprivation" techniques, see: European Court of Human Rights, Ireland vs. United Kingdom - 5310/71 [1978] ECHR 1 (18 January 1978)
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 01:58 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
If you want to go to the extreme, ANY interrogation technique can be considered torture, no matter how benign it might seem to be.

It just seems to me that as long as it doesnt violate the Convention against Torture that any techniques used should be OK.


Many are, e.g. those methods, sometimes termed "disorientation" or "sensory deprivation" techniques, see: European Court of Human Rights, Ireland vs. United Kingdom - 5310/71 [1978] ECHR 1 (18 January 1978)


You mean this part...

167. ... Although the five techniques, as applied in combination, undoubtedly amounted to inhuman and degrading treatment, although their object was the extraction of confessions, the naming of others and/or information and although they were used systematically, they did not occasion suffering of the particular intensity and cruelty implied by the word torture as so understood. ...

So they might be degrading and inhuman, but they are not torture, according to the court ruling in the case you cited.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 02:04 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The legal challenges against Bush administration officials will go on for years. Yoo is already being sued and Addington won't be far behind. Hope that jail treats both of them well. Or better yet, subject them to the sorts of things that they say aren't torture.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-padilla080104,1,6749180.story?track=rss

Cycloptichorn


Any lawsuit against Yoo seems destined to be dismissed at the summary judgment stage, if not a motion to dismiss. All he probably needs to show is that he was acting in his official capacity, and there was a good faith and reasonable basis for his legal opinion ... he will have immunity -- absolute or qualified -- from this suit.

And you aren't so naive as to think jail is a possible sanction arising out of that lawsuit, are you?


Probably not, as nice as the thought is. Still, I suspect the rabbit hole goes far, far deeper then has been revealed; at every opportunity presented, it has been shown to be so, and I doubt we are at the bottom.

Here's the problem with your theory:

"and there was a good faith and reasonable basis for his legal opinion "

There is no reasonable basis behind his legal opinion; that's the entire problem for he and the Bush crew. Yoo's theory that no laws whatsoever apply to the Exec. branch is not likely to be looked upon kindly by the judiciary.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 02:22 pm
mysteryman wrote:
You mean this part...

167. ... Although the five techniques, as applied in combination, undoubtedly amounted to inhuman and degrading treatment, although their object was the extraction of confessions, the naming of others and/or information and although they were used systematically, they did not occasion suffering of the particular intensity and cruelty implied by the word torture as so understood. ...

So they might be degrading and inhuman, but they are not torture, according to the court ruling in the case you cited.



I would read that again, MM. Especially the background/facts why the court HERE (in the cases done in the "unidentified interrogation centre or centres") said so.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 02:25 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
There is no reasonable basis behind his legal opinion; that's the entire problem for he and the Bush crew. Yoo's theory that no laws whatsoever apply to the Exec. branch is not likely to be looked upon kindly by the judiciary.


Then, if the unconstitutionality of his opinions is settled law, this lawsuit might have a chance, since his immunity might be at issue. Sadly -- for you -- that is not the case.

Of course even if the case proceeds past the immunity issue, there is still a little problem of proving causation, which might prove difficult for the plaintiff.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 03:37 pm
"Why should "we" (who ever that might be) not use the definition already excisting - and signed in a treaty by the USA? (Convention Against Torture [and Universal Declaration of Human Rights])" Exactly. But Gonzalez would call that quaint. Tico would say Bushie is bigger than those laws and the constitution and MM could justify waterboarding his own mother if that was merely suspected to be "necessary".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 03:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
There is no reasonable basis behind his legal opinion; that's the entire problem for he and the Bush crew. Yoo's theory that no laws whatsoever apply to the Exec. branch is not likely to be looked upon kindly by the judiciary.


Then, if the unconstitutionality of his opinions is settled law, this lawsuit might have a chance, since his immunity might be at issue. Sadly -- for you -- that is not the case.

Of course even if the case proceeds past the immunity issue, there is still a little problem of proving causation, which might prove difficult for the plaintiff.


His opinions are settled as unconstitutional, unfortunately for torture supporters. His reading of the Constitution is not supported by any known law or precedent; in the absence of some ruling supporting his radical departure from known law, there is no real basis for his opinion.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 03:50 pm
See here

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/32668/david_cole_on_john_yoo_and_the_imperial_presidency

Claims that the constitution could be interpreted to mean what he says are without merit. One could claim that the Constitution means anything they want, but that does not imply merit to those claims.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 05:30 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
See here

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/32668/david_cole_on_john_yoo_and_the_imperial_presidency

Claims that the constitution could be interpreted to mean what he says are without merit. One could claim that the Constitution means anything they want, but that does not imply merit to those claims.

Cycloptichorn


People who think that the constitution can be made to mean anything, probably just don't understand it.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 06:13 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
"Why should "we" (who ever that might be) not use the definition already excisting - and signed in a treaty by the USA? (Convention Against Torture [and Universal Declaration of Human Rights])" Exactly. But Gonzalez would call that quaint. Tico would say Bushie is bigger than those laws and the constitution and MM could justify waterboarding his own mother if that was merely suspected to be "necessary".


Show me one time where I have ever justified waterboarding!!!

Once again you make a claim with nothing to back it up, as is your norm.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 06:38 pm
"mysteryman
Seasoned Member



Joined: 27 Nov 2002
Posts: 4838
Location: Ky.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:56 pm Post: 2938683 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blueflame1 wrote:
mysteryman, as usual you cop out. How bout your mom? If your mother was waterboarded would you still think waterboarding wasn't torture? How bout if she was left naked in very cold damp conditions for a month with neverending, extremely loud heavy metal music bursting her eardrums. Torture? You weren't hatched I assume. You do have a mother?


Yes, unlike you I do have a mother.

If she was a terrorist and had info our govt needed, then I would have no problem with the treatments you describe.
As her son I might not like it, but as a soldier I would have no problem with it being done." Sounds like you'd waterboard your mother, leave her in cold damp conditions for a month with neverending, extremely loud heavy metal music bursting her eardrums. When I asked if she was only a suspected terrorist would you still waterboard her you did not reply. Many of those Bushie tortured were only suspected terrorists later found innocent and released. So if your mother was only a suspected terrorist would you still waterboard her?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 08:08 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
His opinions are settled as unconstitutional, unfortunately for torture supporters. His reading of the Constitution is not supported by any known law or precedent; in the absence of some ruling supporting his radical departure from known law, there is no real basis for his opinion.

Cycloptichorn


As you might recall, I disagree re your assertion that his opinions are settled as unconstitutional. And I suspect I shall be shown to be correct, again, before all is said and done.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 08:08 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Many of those Bushie tortured were only suspected terrorists later found innocent and released.


Whom are you referring to?

And what, exactly, was done to these particular individuals, that you believe constitutes torture?

And by what process were they "found innocent" and released?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jan, 2008 10:30 pm
Quote:


[Ron] Paul explains how U.S. foreign policy helped fuel the attacks of 9/11, and from there, the rest of the candidates go on the offense. Watching them try to explain how the islamofacists hate us for our freedoms and why America's actions play no role in terrorism is nothing short of comical. Mitt Romney, once again showing his ignorance to history and international issues, says that the U.S. needs to help bring Islamic countries into "modernity and moderation" ?- then proceeds to give President Bush a beaming endorsement for keeping us safe.

And, right on cue, Rudy Giuliani chimes in, claiming our foreign policy was "totally irrelevant" to 9/11 and terrorism in general. This clip is proof positive that if elected, all of the GOP front runners will continue the failed Bush Doctrine of perpetual war, and are completely unfit to lead our country.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/

0 Replies
 
 

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