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Element production in stars

 
 
stuh505
 
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 09:21 am
The heavier elements are created by stars as they age.

This makes sense to me because the star's gravity would hold together lots of hydrogen and the high energy would allow it to easily overcome the ionization energies to break apart atoms in order to transmute them into new atomic configurations which have higher ionization energies and are therefore more stable.

However, I do not understand why they produce elements heavier than Ni which has the highest ionization energy
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,897 • Replies: 11
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 09:23 am
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where hydrogen is built into helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees

Yo ho, it's hot, the sun is not
A place where we could live
But here on earth there'd be no life
Without the light it gives . . .
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 09:27 am
Yo Ho, It all makes sense now.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 09:32 am
They produce other elements via fusion, do they not?

Fusion up to iron creates energy as a byproduct. Fusion of anything heavier than iron actually absorbs energy. The heavier elements are produced only at the end of a star's life. Even then, it requires a Nova or Supernova to disperse the elements.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 09:45 am
DrewDad wrote:
They produce other elements via fusion, do they not?

Fusion up to iron creates energy as a byproduct. Fusion of anything heavier than iron actually absorbs energy. The heavier elements are produced only at the end of a star's life. Even then, it requires a Nova or Supernova to disperse the elements.


Ni and Fe have very similar ionization energies but technically Ni is higher

If, to fuse an element heavier than Fe/Ni, you only used lighter elements but no lighter than Fe/Ni, then yes it makes sense that this would absorb energy. I don't know if fusion ever occurs from elements lighter than Fe/Ni to elements heavier than Fe/Ni, but this would still be creating extra energy if it did...

Anyway, I still don't see why the star would produce anything less stable than Ni once it is capable of producing Ni.

Is it simply that, once everything has been converted to Ni, and it has tons of free energy left over, it prefers to bind this energy into the elements themselves in order to create the heavier ones rather than leaving the energy free?
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 09:51 am
The star fuses the lighter elements first, then has to move up to heavier elements as it runs out of fuel. Or perhaps it fuses more and more heavier elements as the impurities in the hydrogen supply increase.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 10:48 am
How would fusing lighter elements use up fuel, I thought that fusing of lighter elements was the source of it's fuel
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:00 am
It has nothing to do with ionization. A new star is made of hydrogen being fused to Helium. The hydrogen fusion in the star is the only force keeping the mutual gravitational attraction all of the atoms have for each other from making it implode. When enough of the hydrogen is gone, the star does implode, but this produces enough heat to start the fusion of helium into carbon. And so on. There are other fusion reactions going on too, but this will give you the basic idea.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:05 am
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/stars/fusion.shtml

Quote:
Nuclear Fusion and Nucleosynthesis
Stars are giant nuclear reactors. In the center of stars, atoms are taken apart by tremendous atomic collisions that alter the atomic structure and release an enormous amount of energy. This makes stars hot and bright.

Nuclear fusion is an atomic reaction that fuels stars. In fusion, many nuclei (the centers of atoms) combine together to make a larger one (which is a different element). The result of this process is the release of a lot of energy (the resultant nucleus is smaller in mass than the sum of the ones that made it; the difference in mass is converted into energy by the equation E=mc2).

Stars are powered by nuclear fusion in their cores, mostly converting hydrogen into helium.

The production of new elements via nuclear reactions is called nucleosynthesis. A star's mass determines what other type of nucleosynthesis occurs in its core (or during explosive changes in its life cycle). Each of us is made from atoms that were produced in stars and went through a supernova.
Small stars: The smallest stars only convert hydrogen into helium.
Medium-sized stars (like our Sun): Late in their lives, when the hydrogen becomes depleted, stars like our Sun can convert helium into oxygen and carbon.
Massive stars (greater than five times the mass of the Sun): When their hydrogen becomes depleted, high mass stars convert helium atoms into carbon and oxygen, followed by the fusion of carbon and oxygen into neon, sodium, magnesium, sulfur and silicon. Later reactions transform these elements into calcium, iron, nickel, chromium, copper and others. When these old, large stars with depleted cores supernova, they create heavy elements (all the natural elements heavier than iron) and spew them into space, forming the basis for life.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 04:23 pm
Oops, I did say ionization energy. I meant binding energy....just replace that word everywhere I said ionization before.

Thank you for pointing out that Brandon.

I think you are wrong when you say "The hydrogen fusion in the star is the only force keeping the mutual gravitational attraction all of the atoms have for each other from making it implode"

In fact, it must be the strong/nuclear force that keeps the star from imploding. When the star becomes massive enough, gravitational forces overcome the nuclear force violating the pauli exclusion principle and causing the electrons to collapse into the nucleus resulting in an explosion.
Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm going partly on intuition here.

DrewDad, you were originally saying Iron and I corrected you by saying Ni, but I just read somewhere that it is in fact Fe. This seems to present a logical problem -- would not Ni be the more stable element?

I see that your latest post shows some facts about the specific transformations that occur. I am not so particularly interested aout exactly which elements get formed in what order...but rather, how it is possible for elements other than Ni/Fe to be formed.

I see that through fusion and a large supply of energy it would be possible to create any element, but it seems that natures tendency to find the most stable state would cause the other elements to not be created.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 06:07 pm
No, the pressure caused by fusion is what prevents the initial collapse. Only when the nuclei approach each other does the "strong" nuclear force stop further collapse. If the star is massive enough, it overcomes the nuclear force and collapses further, perhaps down to a black hole.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:56 pm
Re: Element production in stars
stuh505 wrote:
The heavier elements are created by stars as they age.

This makes sense to me because the star's gravity would hold together lots of hydrogen and the high energy would allow it to easily overcome the ionization energies to break apart atoms in order to transmute them into new atomic configurations which have higher ionization energies and are therefore more stable.

However, I do not understand why they produce elements heavier than Ni which has the highest ionization energy


All Elements beyond Iron are produced during Supernovae.

Iron is the point at which you get no more energy from fusion.

I started a thread on this a while back... it might even have been back on Afuzz... wow

Stellar Evolution
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