Do you think this is true?

I don't know about apples, but I used to live in a house with a cherry tree in the front yard, and the cherries at the top were the ones that the birds ate. Every fall the cars would get covered in red bird crap.

I'll just repeat what I said in response to the last topic: I believe it.

Patiodog-you always seem to see the bright side of things....

POM said:


I don't know what last topic you are referring to, but it's funny that you responded to this. You're one of the people whose situation I've read about on this forum that prompted me to post this here.
(I think it was you who described your dating history since your divorce. Were you the person who said you have these little cards now with your e-mail printed on them, but that you're finding dating again disappointing? If not, excuse my mistake.)

Anyway, I have several single friends who have found themselves alone in middle-age and I always wonder why - because they're bright, funny, attractive women. I thought this little "fable" from my uncle might help to explain it somewhat and be encouraging to those in that situation.

It's my gift to the world.

What a lovely gift to give the world (just kidding)- I'm sure you have others as well.


Nice dog, by the way. It looks just like my parents' dog. Now she's a gift.

I've found some pretty damned good apples at the bottom opf the tree long after the ones on top have gone rotten. And keep in mind, the ones at the top, if left there long enough, fall to the bottom.

NickFun said:

Who can argue with that? It's a fact.
I'll have to tell my uncle his apple and wine "fable" didn't hold up under scrutiny.

Maybe I'll post some of his other stuff though - sometimes it's pretty funny.

aidan -- You are right. It's funny, but I know a woman who is intelligent, talented and beautiful at 57. She attracts men but there always ones she should smile at and then walk away. She hangs on and tries to make things work, even when the men have other women they prefer.

Two other friends, both in their 50s, are women with talent -- one is a singer and the other an artist. They're also very hard working. Both have been married twice. In the case of the singer, the second husband put no effort into the marriage. In the case of the artist, the daughter of the second husband made life miserable for them.

I feel terrible for all three women. Admittedly, two of them are a bit high strung, but none of them have done anything to merit their loneliness.

Actually, I responded to your thread because apples and wine sounded so inviting.

As for the inferential topic, i would agree that it is likely that many, and perhaps most, men and women "settle for second-best" because a lack of self-confidence. I have often felt, and have known other men who felt, that one particular schmuck or the other didn't deserve the fine woman he had--but maybe she accepted him because she didn't feel she would be attractive to the man, or the type of man, she really wanted.

As with all such "wisdom," it undoubtedly does not represent universal truth.

Actually, I've looked at several couples and thought that in some cases the woman and in other the man could have done better. (I know there are a few of here that think of me as something of a manhater. I'm not.)

A friend and I were swapping romantic stories just a few days ago and I told her the stories of two people -- one, a diabetic woman of the WWII generation and the other a man with a father who will to control was of epic proportions -- both of whom were denied the sweethearts of their choice. Both thought those sweethearts were lost for good and both later married others. Both were unhappy and eventually divorced their mates.

The woman -- whose family forbade her to marry because she was diabetic and because medicines for her disease were poor during the 1930s -- was told after the war that she could marry. During the 1960s, on a trip to her hometown, she began to wonder whether her sweetheart was still alive. She looked him up in the phone book and there he was. She called him and they spent many happy years together.

The man -- whose father also forbade him to attend medical school because he didn't want his son to "get professionally ahead of him" -- eventually earned a PhD in public health. A conference took him to Paris. As he left the conference one day, and walked out into the street, he saw the brother of his former sweetheart. Her marriage was unhappy. In fact, she and her husband had divorced once, then remarried, although the situation didn't seem to improve much. Anyway, everyone -- both husbands and wives -- became much happier after all the divorcing was finished.

Those two didn't marry their first spouses (is the plural of spouse spice?) because they were thought no one else was good enough but because they thought their great loves were lost.

My great love, my fiancee, passed away 2 years ago very unexpectedly. I know that I will never see her again in this life. I also know she was my soul mate. I am dating again but I am not looking for someone like her -- because that could never happen.

I am uncomfortable with the basic premise of this discussion-- not the least because it poses a logical dilemma.

There is an underlying assumption here is that one person can have a value than another person. Certainly the tree analogy assigns the apples at the top of the tree a greater value than those at the bottom (although it doesn't specify what that value is). The term "second-best" also implies a rank in the spectrum of human value-- although you could argue that you really mean "second-best" for the person which would imply you were choosing the second-best relationship instead of the second-best person. This would be an interesting discussion in itself.

But assuming that there is a way to rank the value of potential mates... the idea that more than half of people settle for second best is simply impossible. Either a couple is equally matched, or one partner in the relationship is "lucky" (i.e. with someone of greater value than his own).

I feel that the relationship you are in is more important than the person you are with.

Of course a relationship is built, not found. Maybe that is where the grape thing fits in.

No, it's just about stompin' on yer grapes.

That's right Patiodog-nothing like being consistent. Actually, I do find consistency to be a trait I appreciate and value in people - you always know where you stand.

POM- I thought your comment about the beautiful 57 year old was interesting. Maybe part of the reason she is interested in the guys she should smile and walk away from because they prefer other women is partially because they do prefer other women for some things and sometimes, at least. Obviously they prefer her company at some times and for some things, and maybe that works better for her than having to be the whole enchilada all the time and for all their purposes. You know, it allows her to retain a little bit of autonomy and independence.
I don't think it would work for me, but I can see how that could be an attractive scenario- especially for a woman who'd been married and a mother and had had to spend most of her adult life being all things to all people every minute of every day.
*Although if there was deception and cheating involved - that'd change the whole picture- in a horribly negative way-again, for me at least.

ebrown-I see your point, but I think that the practical reality is that some people, simply by the characteristics they possess that either mesh with ones own or don't, can be more valuable to an individual in terms of helping them realize their fullest potential for fulfillment and enjoyment in life. That's important to admit and realize when choosing a life partner, don't you agree? Although you might really believe in the inherent dignity and equal "value" of a person as a human being, assessing their value to you, in terms of providing you with a partner you can love and honor and grow along with for many years, is crucial for the life of the relationship on which we all place so much importance.

I think unfortunately, as Setanta pointed out, that's what a lot of people fail to realize, especially if they marry young. Maybe because as he said, they haven't yet developed an accurate impression of their own value or needs.

I'm sorry to hear about your fiance NickFun. I can imagine that'd be very difficult. But I think you're right in terms of not trying to replace her. I'm sure that'd prove to be impossible and frustrating for you and anyone else you got involved with. That's why as POM spoke to, I think it's important to go with your intuition.
When you know you've found the one - you shouldn't let anyone or anything stand in the way- even your own insecurities because I think a lot of times people would be surprised.
I liked this guy in college that I thought was out of my league, so I just kind of fed it in my head, but never let on to anything but friendship outwardly. My husband was friends with him and after we got married I was telling him that I had always had this crush on "Rich". My husband just looked at me and said, "I knew. That's why I never told you that he once said to me, "If you ever break up with Rebecca - would you care if I asked her out?" Luckily, I had decided on my own Rich wouldn't have been right for a life-time (really smart and handsome, but had a weakness for recreational drugs), so I didn't hold it against my husband. Actually, I felt he probably did me a favor. But what I'm saying is - I totally misread that situation- which a lot of people do - which is the point of the apple/wine fable.

*I still don't like the idea of stomping anyone to turn them into something else, though.

*God, I feel like I sound like Dr. Phil or something - but you guys brought up a lot of interesting points - thanks- and here I thought the whole apple/wine premise had been debunked.

Nick, I'm so sorry to hear that. Big warm squeezy hugs to you, my friend. You're a very special person and I know you will discover someone who deserves you.

Re: Do you think this is true?


Hmmmmm ... Sometimes the best apples, plums, pears, whatever ... have actually fallen off the tree & are perfect to be eaten, if only someone would just pick them up off the ground, before they rot! I haven't a clue about what that could possibly mean, people-wise, though!
The idea of "stomping the crap" out of any male before he's acceptable to go out to dinner with just makes me feel weary. A crumby grape is a crumby grape, that's all there is to it. You can't turn it into a fine wine just because you want to! I'd think I'd rather dine alone rather than go to such lengths to make some fellow acceptable! :wink:

"The idea of "stomping the crap" out of any male before he's acceptable to go out to dinner with just makes me feel weary. A crumby grape is a crumby grape, that's all there is to it. You can't turn it into a fine wine just because you want to! I'd think I'd rather dine alone rather than go to such lengths to make some fellow acceptable!"

I'm with you, msolga. Totally. Life's hard enough without kicking each other in the teeth.

Yay, Sister Mame!