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Hang Tuah (Malaysia History)

 
 
atvh1963
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 11:02 pm
Dear All,

Paaskynen's comments are valid and I applaude him for trying to state the facts and to help readers understand how the original thread by Enyo was found to be unsupported and in fact not factual with regards to the so called research and reference to The Federal Association of Arc & Research of Michigan, USA. which probably does not exist.

What readers must take from this blog is that the present living conditions and discrimination in Malaysia has gotten very BAD, so much so I am ashamed of being called a Malaysian. I have in fact abandoned my citizenship to the country of which I am the fifth generation and still not recognised to be a Malaysian and was in fact second class citizens with no full citizenship rights.

My father and uncles defended the country risked thier lives for it as I had as I was in the Royal Malaysian Navy for about 4 + years. I am saddened by my decision to abandon Malaysia but the future for my decendents will not be a bright one if I had stayed.

The readers of this thread on this site should take away from it the fact that there are indeed REAL issues and displeasure within the country and its citizens who still remain in the country. Find out more about teh issues raised and tehn make your mind up about the TRUTH.

IT IS NOT IMPORTANT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, WHAT WE ALL MUST DO IS, LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES AND MAKE THE FUTURE BETTER NOT WORSE.
DavidLiou
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 02:10 pm
@airil,
hard to say LOL
0 Replies
 
zx22qw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 11:55 am
@danielmax,
could you tell me were the grave was, in details.
and how they really claim that their discovery are real
trust me, there are many stories of the grave whereabouts
even the grave of malaccan royalty is not founded until now.
why must we happen to trust any treads that lead to racism
even the evidence is was only give us more questioning
the best part is the first objective :-

1. To find prove and evident that show the Malays are the origins of Malaysia
and they are the first race and religion that lands their foot in Malaysia.

why should malaysian government went to all this trouble...
i choose malacca for instance, because malacca had the most riches
and had international port for traders in ancient malaya land
even in history books, the first sultan of malacca is not malay,
hes indonesian for crying out loud
and the first religion set in malaya archipelago according to the
book was hindu

think wisely my friend
choose to be right for yourself
54321
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 08:05 am
malaysian means malaysian.. why have to bother all this non-sense? bumiputra so what? u prove this doesn't mean that you got the bumiputra rights. if you prove this we all will have war and sooner more or less like an african. no food no home no cloths. if you really don't like here or the government you can migrate actually. is not easy to stay with other races for so long time.. we should appreciate it. a chinese saying.. ren yi shi...feng ping lang jing...
0 Replies
 
momosan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 09:59 am
You guys just don't get it at all....this never about who is here first or to claim what so ever.... This is to ask you all out there to think if the goverment can delete such a big worrior from the history... what is we all who call our self MALAYSIAN.... don't u all think that is really very unsecured.... you or me can be easily delete just a SNAP.... WALA you or me is GONE forever.... So think for your self what you wanna do for your country. GIVE YOUR BEST FOR COUNTRY AND WAIT TO BE DELETED FOREVER. that's what i wanna say....
0 Replies
 
momosan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 10:15 am
@atvh1963,
THINK WISELY. IF WE DON'T LEARN FROM OUR PAST WHERE DO WE LEARN FROM....?? funny teacher all over still teach us that....
0 Replies
 
wkcckw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 06:36 am
Fyi, Admiral Zeng-He (Chinese Muslim sailor), sails to many parts of the world, under the order of the Emperor of China during that period. As a responsible admiral of a huge fleet, his grand voyage placed interest of China supremacy as naval power of the sea above that the Emperor's grand scheme to become immortal ruler to live long life than the rest, and to show off his new empire. Alas, the Emperor dies before Admiral Zeng-He can fullfill what China is capable of. This book, 1421, and beyond, told the tragic end of Admiral Zeng-He unfinished voyage. His around the world voyage ended when his commander in chief, Emperor Zhu Di dies. The new emperor took over the empire and ordered all records written during Admiral Zeng-He voyage be destroy. Truth buried with the death of Admiral Zeng-He himself.

As a captain of a sailing ship, Admiral Zeng-He must and shall always keep every records, dates, maps and testimonies of daily event while at sea. I am sure that missing or destroyed records must mentioned about Hang & Co brotherhoods (highly armed with martial art tactics, war planning and others).

If the Malays are the descendent of the islands of Indonesia archipelagos, and if the Chinese sailors from Hang (or muslim Han) brotherhood from Admiral Zeng-He fleet, could indeed be the frontrunner in protecting the Malacca legacy, I can say that... fortune blows and sided with the Malays because Chinese themselves went far to destroy evidences of its achievement. Alas, we shall never know what really happen during that era.

Maybe along the Malacca sultanate rule, when Malay dialect twisted for many generation and the Han was pronounced Hang.

And one big question to many answers is... why (if true) the Malays so afraid to face the truth if the Hang (or Han) brotherhood saved Malacca Sultanate from his enemies. If... and only if, the alternate history is correct, the Malays should be grateful to the Chinese that we are not been call Indonesians!

To all Malays and non-Malays, just give it a thought. If my comments are wrong, I hope I do not hurt our Malay friends. To non-Malays, stop be arrogant and proud, and enjoy the future.

0 Replies
 
bestof92
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 04:37 pm
From the sound of it all, statements regarding the race of Hang Tuan & Co seems to be coming from sides for and against the first post, but neither side have enough evidence of backing up their motion.

Although I agree with many of the statements posted, it could well have been nonsensical pish posh from people who think that they are right based on just a few interesting facts that they pull together from different sources(which, for all we know might be unreliable) in their attempt to prove the original race of Hang Tuah & Co. Well of course you think you're right! You read from different sources, and make your own judgement based on what you really want to hear. In actual fact, you haven't really given yourself a chance to open your mind and heart to the possibility that you could be wrong.

Some suggest that his front name 'Hang' may follow the Chinese naming convention with the surname in the front. That is IF Hang is from a chinese name. Some also say that the name Hang might have been mistranslated over the decades from the original 'Han', a lesser known Malay Muslim name. For all i know, it could be either. We can't get evidence simply from the name. It is blindingly obvious that 'Hang Tuah', being a name from the pages of the past, could well have been mistranslated from text to text over the decades until the origins of the name itself could be lost. Names from the past can vary from text to text. The famous Tang Dinasty Buddhist monk, 'I Ching' himself has his name written in many ways, including the pinyin 'Yi Jing'. Origins of the names of several states such as Kelantan(Kilatan, Kolam-antam) or Terrenganu(Taring Anu) are examples proving that names change over time. Going back to the topic, it is almost improbable(but not impossible) that 'Hang Tuah' has been spelt in exactly the same way as it originally was. It is most likely to have been changed after so long. So we can't say for sure that Hang is a chinese surname.

Statements about the 5 chinese warriors being sent by the Chinese Emperor to protect the sultan and/or Hang Li Po could either be true or just plain bullcrap. We can't just say that this is true unless clear evidence is pointed out to prove this hypothesis. People are good in theorizing but not good enough in proving. There is an array of places to find these evidences such as the Chinese Historical archives, or even Admiral Zheng He's logs if some of them still exist. If this is so important to you why not get a team of historians to get some research done. I think it's better if we know what we are talking about before really saying it out. Who knows what we might find out from these archives? The 'Sulalatus Salatin' by Tun Sri Lanang or ' Sejarah Melayu' isn't enough to prove anything if you ask me.

The reference about the DNA evidence of Hang Tuah etc. being chinese could be rubbish for all we know. Let's say the DNA test carried out is real. What can we do to prove that the bones are really theirs?

However, some of the things stated by previous posts are also plausible. There is a post I found in a different website:
"There is an old Chinese tradition where warriors or servants in the royal palace were given or re-issued with surnames given by the emperor, to signify that they belong to the emperor, or to one of his offsprings. Therefore, it is possible that some very special bodyguards of the emperor or the royal family, have the same surname to signify that they are a unit formed especially to protect that one owner. Since the Princess Hang Li Po was given away in marriage to a strategic partner whose land the emperor wanted to ensure is safe and stable, he assigned a group of able warriors to the Princess Li Po, and he gave their families the same surname."
Therefore, Hang could be the given surname by the Emperor.

Whether or not Hang Tuah is Chinese or Malay, why does it really matter? What will it change? History is all about learning about what happened in the past, so we won't be condemned to repeat the mistakes made(as said by George Santayana). If we are so caught up fighting over the original race of such a legendary symbol of our country, then aren't we just making things worse in a multiracial nation? The whole concept of 'race' is but an illusion. There is only one race-The Human Race. What are the differences between us? Other than the colour of our skin, everything else is the same. Let's say Hang Tuah is chinese. Where do we go from there? Someone tell me, because i really don't see the point.

You know what? If Hang Tuah is Chinese, it will only make things worse. All of us chinese shouldn't be quite so happy. Instead, we should be the ones hiding behind the pillow of shame. Some of us here try so hard to prove that Hang Tuah, the great legendary hero of our country is Chinese, and say that he can't possibly be a Malay because at the back of our minds, there are 2 things-firstly, we want him to be chinese because it will make us look good, and secondly, Malays can't fight as well as Bruce Lee. Well, let me tell you why you should be ashamed...This 'chinese' warrior protected the Malay Sultanate. History is all about learning from the past. Shouldnt we be learning from that aspect of the past, instead of the origins of the race? We should all work together in this country. But then again. Us Malaysians are only good in talking and not good in action.

I dare ANYONE to correct me if im wrong.



kokosuger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 01:16 am
@bestof92,
Have you got the fund to do it,,,,,,If yes i will,,,,
By the way pls do not ask UMNO goverment to give that funding,,,UMNO goverment will reject ,,,,,,because UMNO only want UMNO history
bestof92
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 12:04 pm
@kokosuger,
Well, if people really want to find out that badly then i guess they can come up with the fund. It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be, though i really dont see much point.

0 Replies
 
Rainbow Warrior
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 02:01 pm
Looking back, the Srivijayan kings were probably descended from Kushans (Da Yuezhi tribe of Tocharian stock aka Vijaya in Tibetan) all the way back from Langkasuka days in the 1st century CE (Arya Passatan, an Admiral of the Kushan navy who probably from Massava Islands in the Malay world brought a Kushan expedition to the region in 10 Saka 88 CE) and they used the honorifics Hyang (Dapunta Hyang Sri Jayanasa inscription at Bukit Kedudukan in Sumatera circa 683 CE) and Sang (Parameswara the last Prince of Srivijaya was great-grandson of Sang Nila Utama who founded Temasik lka Singapura).

In any case, Hang Tuah's famous quotation is "Takkan Melayu hilang di dunia". Even if he was Chinese and came with Hang Li Po, I believe the fact that he is Muslim, habitually spoke Malay, conforms to Malay custom (e.g. wearing Malay dress and using kris to fight) and defended a Malay Sultan - he would probably qualify as Malay if he'd been born in the land of Malaysia.

Guess in the old days, treason (e.g. by Hang Jebat) was cut and dried and well defined; but in these days perhaps war and depredation needs to be better defined to include all forms of warfare, to include economic and biological, against Ruler AND/OR Government.

Otherwise how would we identify those loyal to Malaysia that uphold our Rukunegara, or not?
Rainbow Warrior
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 02:27 pm
Or perhaps, instead of going back to India, Arya Passatan decided to stay and found Langkasuka ... so maybe early Malaysian kingdoms could have been founded by a Malay after all. THAT would be consistent with Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa ... after all sea levels were probably 3 - 5m higher than now in the 1st century CE (Pulau Serai became Gunung Jerai and Pulau Seguntang became Bukit Seguntang) ... all looking for cendana (sandalwood). If that were so, Langkasuka probably founded Siam @ Chao Phraya, Perak/Salakanegara (Java) and Pattani ... According to Sejarah Pasembah by A. Ghozali, Atung Bungsu Prince of Rao (Kushans) only came looking for him (guided by Arya Tabing another Malay) in 101 Saka (179 CE) anyway, so the timeline fits with reports in Chinese Annals of the 5-6th century that Langkasukans had been around since the 1-2nd century. Arya = noble.

Am yet to explore texts translated from jawi by an Ustadz - apparently there was Nusa Kencana (Golden Chersonese), Nusa Antara (The Islands) and Nusa Kayangan (Mainland Campa). All symbolised by the wau bulan with "teraju tiga" (3 leaders). More, later! In the meantime, history buffs, have fun reading about 7 ships from Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa to Sri Lanka's Mahavamsa to Riwayat Seri Kelantan! Going on a journey to make a profit says the Kedudukan Bukit Inscription ... Alangkahsuka Srivijaya ... Supreme Joy Splendid Success!
0 Replies
 
Rainbow Warrior
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Aug, 2010 08:54 am
I stand corrected - Nusa Rantang (Mainland South East Asia). It's in wikipedia. albeit in Malay
0 Replies
 
Rainbow Warrior
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Aug, 2010 08:56 am
@Rainbow Warrior,
Was referring to the Malaysian Constitution and Penal Code. Salaam (greenpeace).
0 Replies
 
urumichi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2010 06:46 pm
Read this article from an article from the Journal of SouthEast Asian Studies:

According to a paper, The search for the origins of 'Melayu', by Leonard Y Andaya, published by the Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, October 2001, the first groups of humans, some of whom eventually became Malays, began migrating out of Taiwan in 4000 – 3000 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              4000 – 3000      end_of_the_skype_highlighting BCE. Others have suggested eastern China as the springboard.

They first went over to Luzon and other Philippine islands and then by about 2000 BCE, reached northern Borneo. Other groups drifted southwards to Mindanao, Sulawesi, the Malukus, and eventually eastern and central Java.
.... read on
http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2005/yax-455.htm
Rainbow Warrior
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2010 08:16 pm
@urumichi,
Thank you for the interesting article. I am 43.75% Javanese myself (my late grandmother's grandmother was Bugis). Please find alternative theory as follows:
Edit [Moderator]: Link removed

Happy reading in google translate!
0 Replies
 
ItsyGoGogo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 11:59 am
@Enyo,
Hang Tuah is CHINESE not MALAY

Way back in 1987, a Malay (from the old school) told
me of his suspicion that Hang Tuah was Chinese.
Notice that Hang Tuah, Hang Jebat and Hang Lekiu
carry the same surname, Hang? Malays don't have
surnames. Hang Tuah is the eldest so 'tuah' which
means big or elder in some Chinese dialects, e.g.
Hokkien. Further, Hang Tuah brought a Chinese
princess to marry the Sultan of Malacca. Her name?
Hang Li Po.


URL: http://able2know.org/topic/87656-1

WHAT IS THAT???

DONT TRY TI CONFUSE US BY HANG LI PO NAME AND HANG TUAH,,TO DESCRIBE HANG TUAH AS CHINESE,,,SEE BELOW!!

Hang Li Po (Chinese: 汉丽宝; pinyin: Hàn Lìbǎo) was the fifth wife of Malacca's Sultan Mansur Shah (reigning from 1456 to 1477). It is disputed whether such a person exists because she was never recorded in the Chinese court of the Ming Dynasty in the Ming Chronicles and in the genealogical record of the imperial house of Zhu, the royal family of the Ming dynasty. In addition, the Ming decorum of rites, governed by the Ministry of Rites, in the matter of bestowing the title princess is always two characters followed by the title 公主 (Gong Zhu, a title denotes blood-relation to the Emperor) or 郡主 (Jun Zhu,a title denotes a relation to a Duke or a non-royal relation), such as the infamous Princess Changping 長平公主 and Princess Dongyang 東陽郡主. The claim of a Ming princess converted to Islam is also disputed as the conversion of any aristocratic member of the Ming court to a foreign religion or belief was forbidden. With much historical disputes, at the time of the arrival of the Sultan's envoy, the reigning Ming Emperor was Tianshun Emperor. However, in many historical text, she was said to have been a princess in the court of the Yongle Emperor (1402–1424).

THAT IS HAN LIBAO..MAYBE IN MALAY PRONOUNCE USE HANG LI PO..SO THINK ABOUT IT!!!
EstherB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2010 08:29 am
@ItsyGoGogo,
Assuming that Hang (Han) Tuah is genuinely a Malay, Why Malaysian government delete the subject in 'Sejarah Melayu/Sejarah Malaysia?
Kelvin 333
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 08:22 pm
@airil,
well... do you know the origin of silat then?
it is a combination of several arts around the region during the trade.
that is how most of the martial arts around the world came to be. Silat is a part of mixture between kung fu, silambam and many more. even if people say it is silat but who is there to say it is not kung fu either?
and regarding the names of why westerners have names like Daniel lee or sort, is because when Zhang He traveled, he instructed the Chinese that came along to mate and start a family wherever he traveled. it is proven that there are many westerners that carry Chinese gene.
0 Replies
 
wkong
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 06:36 pm
@benh,
Simple! Cos the malay worried that they will lost the land to others. That is the reason why they brought out the racial card. If they can prove that they are the first one who landed on Malaya then they can sing the tune of Ketuan Melayu. So no other race can question their rights and then UMNO party will still continue to run the country.
0 Replies
 
 

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