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Can money buy happiness?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 02:37 pm
I just signed all the papers for a line of credit. I gotta tell you I am newly happy, even if it isn't anything but debt changing its clothes. I can payoff my eye surgery bills and fix the sideyard fence that is about to fall on some unsuspecting passerby.

I am aware this isn't long term happiness, but I don't remember that that was the original question. Lack of adequate money to bring health and shelter and warmth is a stress, and the relief of it often brings a kind of joy.

Money can enable a lot of things that can potentially engender long time satisfaction, which I insist is a kind of happiness - such as a college education. I would be completely unable to afford the one I got years ago for $26.00 a semester (not including books and living at home) even at the state run university I went to, UCLA - if I were young now.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 02:57 pm
sozobe wrote:
Thomas, how does one measure happiness except by asking? There were a few experiments described -- not just "so, how happy are ya?"

The best way to measure happiness is to observe peoples' effort to seek it. Coming after me with a chainsaw, you observe that I'm running away real fast, and conclude that the unhappiness caused to me by the chainsaw (but nothing less drastic than a chainsaw) is smaller than the unhappiness caused to me by fast running. That sort of thing.

And you're right. "The futile pursuit of happiness" does describe a few experiments of that type. I have my reservations about the experiment you quoted below, and I have even more reservations about the inferrences drawn from the evidence. I'm still trying to figure out just what irks me about it.

But while I'm trying to reach a conclusion on this, I'll just acknowledge that you were right and I was wrong about what the article said. It does describe experiments of the kind I had in mind, and I shouldn't have said that it doesn't. More generally, I should have re-read the article before making pompous remarks about it.

So thanks for forcing me to re-read the "The futile pursuit of happiness". You've made me happier by doing this Smile
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 03:00 pm
Heh!

Happy to oblige. Cool

(By the way, general reiteration -- all of the stuff I'm talking about re: happiness is PAST the point at which basic needs are met. I'd include healthcare in that.)
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 03:12 pm
I suspect it's recursive -- No matter what my current income is, increasing it by a couple 10 percent is defininitely going to make me happier. But beyond twice as much as I'm currently making, there's just no way you can spend money and possibly be happier for it. And below half as much as I'm currently making, there's no way to possibly be happy. Never mind that I did exactly this just five years ago.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 03:16 pm
The way I see it; if my fortunes increased by ten percent, I'll probably give more to charity. Even with the market crash this past week, I can still continue my lifestyle in the same manner I have during my six years of retirement. If I had more assets, I'd probably end up giving more of it away to charity.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 03:17 pm
Thomas wrote:
I suspect it's recursive -- No matter what my current income is, increasing it by a couple 10 percent is defininitely going to make me happier. But beyond twice as much as I'm currently making, there's just no way you can spend money and possibly be happier for it. And below half as much as I'm currently making, there's no way to possibly be happy. Never mind that I did exactly this just five years ago.

Raised mine by 10% and nothing really happened - the family soaked it up faster than I could muster and will for the next 8 years I guess.
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samantha n angie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 May, 2004 12:17 am
Having a savings has brought me comfort. I like knowing its there. I've kept my debt low and spending conservative but I have been known to get a little crazy around them shoes! ( Shocked )
My friends who have constant worries seem to manage their money differently, not worse, just differently. Whenever I want something, I do this, guerilla savings thing. Since my debt is low, I keep almost all my money. I just divide it up among my different savings accounts. New Car Savings, Retirement Savings, Newer Home Savings, Vacation Savings, I gotta admit, I got a lot of 'em. When I lived paycheck to paycheck I was miserable.( Crying or Very sad )
~ But I know now things can change. I think money can definately buy peace of mind. Toys are nice too. But for me, piece of mind is the secret to my financial happiness! Very Happy
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 May, 2004 11:09 am
samantha, Congratulations for managing your money well. I've been retired for six years, and our conservative lifestyle before my retirement allows us to live very comfortably without money worries. It's really nice not having to worry about money; it provides peace of mind and many comforts and the spoils that comes with it.
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samantha n angie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 May, 2004 11:35 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
samantha, Congratulations for managing your money well. I've been retired for six years, and our conservative lifestyle before my retirement allows us to live very comfortably without money worries. It's really nice not having to worry about money; it provides peace of mind and many comforts and the spoils that comes with it.

Thank you for being a great role model. When I retire, that's definately the goal. It takes some doing but its good to know you can get there if you try dollar by dollar! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 May, 2004 02:07 pm
samantha, The only suggestion I would make is to make sure that your retirement savings are invested in mutual funds and to make sure you are diversified. Mutual funds relieves you of the management of some of your investments and leaves it up to professionals that spends their whole career trying to maximize performance. They have access to analytical tools that most individuals do not have. I would also recommend that you put some of your retirement savings with Vanguard Funds, because they have some of the lowest fees in the industry with above average performance. Good luck!
0 Replies
 
samantha n angie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 May, 2004 02:17 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
samantha, The only suggestion I would make is to make sure that your retirement savings are invested in mutual funds and to make sure you are diversified. Mutual funds relieves you of the management of some of your investments and leaves it up to professionals that spends their whole career trying to maximize performance. They have access to analytical tools that most individuals do not have. I would also recommend that you put some of your retirement savings with Vanguard Funds, because they have some of the lowest fees in the industry with above average performance. Good luck!


Thank you so much for the tip. I really appreciate it. I will look into the "Vanguard Funds" straight away. Thanks Again! Very Happy
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 01:55 pm
Thomas wrote:
I have my reservations about the experiment you quoted below, and I have even more reservations about the inferences drawn from the evidence. I'm still trying to figure out just what irks me about it.


Wow. Almost half a year has passed since I wrote this. Since then, I read up on the issue (there was an especially good article by Robert Frank on the subject here). I did some thinking, and I believe I now have figured out what irks me. In fact, I'm so full of things that irk me that this post will probably become way too long for the comfort of its readers, for which case I apologize in advance.

1. I still don't fully trust the data
In the narrowest sense, the experiment described by Sozobe irked me because it didn't control for the other direction. It only measured how many people agreed to dance in public a few weeks later and then chickened out when it was their turn. It didn't control for the other directions -- the people who declined at first, then said: "Heck, I'm doing it!" By itself this would be a relatively petty point, but it seems to be fairly typical for the field. Lots of surveys, lots of experiments that don't quite look controlled, lots of fuzziness. But Frank's article tells me that the surveys have been calibrated against objective measures of (un)happiness like the incidence of suicide, and that they fit quite well. I have to admit that this part of my defense now looks rather weak. Still, I don't really trust the happiness researcher's data.

2. Can happiness researchers predict anything they don't know already?
When happiness researchers say that conventional economics have to be rewritten because of their findings, they are repeating an argument that's pretty old: 'Real humans aren't rational, standard economics assumes rationality, therefore standard economics must be wrong.' This argument sounds persuasive on the face of it. But in economics, like in any science, the relevant test of a theory isn't whether its premises are correct -- it is the theory's ability to predict the outcome of experiments.

As the Evil Genius will confirm if Sozobe asks him, the theory of quantum mechanics defies common sense, and its implications are peculiar to the point of insanity. So why do otherwise nice physics professors teach this insanity to unsuspecting undergraduate students? There is no reason to do this at all -- except that the insane theory happens to predict why electron microscopes magnify as they do, why atomic bombs explode as they do, and why transistors transist as they do. Throughout the early 20th century, many able physicists have tried to develop straightforward, sane theories of (sub)atomic physics, but none of them can predict the outcome of unknown experiments as well as quantum mechanics do.

A similar point applies to Richard Dawkins' 'Selfish Gene' model of biological evolution. Taken literally, it's nonsense -- genes aren't really selfish, and they don't reallyuse rationality to copy as many instances of themselves into the next generation. Nevertheless, the model has proven successful at predicting outcomes it wasn't designed to explain. Consequently, it is now a standard tool in the biologists' tool box and it has become common for them to use 'selfish gene' jargon in talking about evolution.

Likewise for the economist's assumptions of rationality and happiness maximization. Psychologists have long argued that this assumption doesn't hold. Milton Friedman mentioned their argument long ago, in his 1953 essay "The methodology of positive economics". And his counter-argument is the same as my argument about quantum mechanics and the 'selfish gene': theories are as good as the predictions they make, and by this test, standard, neo-classical economists beats all the elaborate psychological models.

They still do, judging from what I read in popular science articles on economics. For example, Daniel Kahnemann won half of the 2002 Nobel prize in economics for exploring the irrationalities of happiness seekers. But the other half of that price was won by Vernon Smith, who explored how these irrationalities changed the optimal design of institutions. It turned out that the changes were negligible in most cases. For another example, Eugene Fama from the University of Chicago has invented the field of "behavioral finance" -- the science of how investors make decisions in stock markets. He, too, made a lot of interesting psychological observations, but in the end, he recommends the same investment strategy as everybody else: don't buy single stocks, buy a stock index and hold it. The market isn't rational, but neither are you, so you can't out-strategize it.

3. Differential happiness, not absolute happiness, is the right basis for decision making
Perhaps this point is best illustrated by the example Sozobe gave about her own financial life a few pages ago. Back when she was a poor student, she was at her happiness set point. Back then, if someone had beamed her into her present, middle-class, activist, conference-organizing supermom life, that would have made her intensely happy. So happy, indeed, that she would have paid X Dollars to bring it about. Today, Sozobe is at her happiness set-point too. But if someone beamed her back into her poor-student life again, that would make her intensely unhappy -- so unhappy that she would be willing to pay Y Dollars to prevent that from happening. I wouldn't be surprised at all if X=Y, which is what neoclassical economics would predict.

Judged from an absolute happiness point of view, there is no difference between poor-student-hood and supermom-dom. And that's a good thing, because the alternative would be permanent depression as a poor student, or permanent mania in the present middle-class life, or both. Nevertheless, the activist middle class mom life is always preferred over the poor student life, and it is always preferred by more or less the same margin. In my judgment, this margin is a much better guide to Sozobe's, or President Bush's or the state of Ohio's decision making than Sozobe's absolute happiness.

4. Even if happiness researchers are right, this plays out both ways politically
From the "futile pursuit of happiness": "Loewenstein tells me that he doesn't see how anybody could study happiness and not find himself leaning left politically; the data make it all too clear that boosting the living standards of those already comfortable, such as through lower taxes, does little to improve their levels of well-being, whereas raising the living standards of the impoverished makes an enormous difference. "

On the other hand, here is a pretty persuasive counter-argument, courtesy of Paul Krugman:

Quote:
But before you denounce (or applaud) happiness research as leftist propaganda, be aware that it also cuts the other way. For example, how do you feel about the "living wage" movement, which in effect wants a large increase in the minimum wage? That would certainly increase the incomes of the lowest-paid workers; but it would also surely have at least some adverse effect on the number of jobs available. You may think that a price worth paying -- but the equations say that the extra unemployment would be a very bad thing for those who lose their jobs, while a higher wage would make only a small difference to the happiness of those who remain employed.

Or think of it this way. If you don't want a society in which everyone is desperately trying to get ahead in a zero-sum status game, you might advocate government policies that slow down the rat race: high tax rates, generous health and unemployment benefits, long mandatory paid vacations, maybe even a limit on individual working hours. In other words, you might want to turn America into France. But France has an unemployment rate more than twice as high as America's, largely because of those same government policies. And unemployment -- even comfortable European-style unemployment -- makes people very unhappy, because it is demoralizing.


It irks me that articles on happiness research always emphasize the aspects that play out for the political left, and downplay those that play out for the political right.

5. Even if happiness researchers are right, I don't want it to justify government intervention.
Scientists have thought of ways to make people happy before. At the end of the 19th century, they thought they had solid statistical evidence that governments could make people happier by providing for a better social environment. The political movements thus encouraged were called socialism and communism. It brought us better social insurance, which is good. But socialism also brought us housing projects that looked and felt like prisons, and communism brought us some of the most murderous regimes in the world.

Other scientists, convinced by other statistical evidence, suggested that governments could make people happier by improving their nature. In the best cases, this brought us eugenics programs in otherwise nice countries like Sweden and Britain. In the worst case, it brought us the Holocaust. That's why I'm very, very, very, very weary of government coercion grounded in the belief that scientists know better what makes people happy than the people themselves. Which brings me to my final point. (Big sigh of relief from the audience, I'm sure.)

6. Even if happiness researchers are right, and governments can make people happy by acting on it -- I prefer liberty over happiness.
Now we're out of science territory and deeply into gut feelings. But I don't think it's just me. A good illustration of my point is Aldous Huxley's novel "Brave New World". It describes a world in which the government skillfully manipulates its citizens' nurture and nature in order to make everyone perfectly happy. With the exception of one person, which was necessary for Huxley to have a novel to write, the system works, and everybody is more or less perfectly happy. Huxley's description of this world feels plausible and consistent to me, so he may well be describing some variant of a reasonably realistic future.

I hate every aspect of it. And I would much prefer to be unhappy on my own terms than happy on the terms of the "Brave New World"'s government.

(And again, I'm sorry if the length of this post made any of you unhappy.)
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mikeexpert
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 02:45 pm
In a simple word yes. However, nothing is ever simple. When the question of can money buy happiness we need some one to elaborate because it depends on how it is gained. If you had to go through a series of adversities/obstacles to get it then maybe the joy you once had is depleted once you obtained the money. Think of children how happy they are until they start to grow and the world starts to throw a monkey wrench in that once innocent life.
Anyway, I would say it depends on the person. For instance a pro football player said he wanted to hit the lotto so he could buy the red sox and make personnel decisions. I myself would like my money in a lump sum after an $80 million plus lottery so, I can enjoy the material things in life. Chasing women all over the globe,buying cars,clothes, and mansions. I would simply be financially free and would not have to worry about money. Being free is defined differently for each of us but, that is my definition because I just bought peace. Hell I can hire a motivational speaker to ensure my mental stays balanced,a Very Happy long with a team of trainers to ensure I stay buff, a nutritionist, etc...
Happy Dreams Very Happy .
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 05:17 pm
mikeexpert, Welcome to a2k. It's true; we must understand the circumstances of how money was gained and what their circumstances were before they got the money. Many lotto winners don't know how to manage money, and they end up being spendthrifts with all their relatives coming out of the woodworks to ask for money. If one doesn't know how to manage money from early on in their lives, no amount of money gained in their future will mean anything. Most people like Bill Gates who has enough money to last for a hundred generations seems happiest to keep working and donate huge amounts to charity.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 12:37 pm
Prospect, an English magazine, has a comprehensive title story on happiness research an its political implications. Being a libertarian, most of these policy implications give me the creeps. For example:

Quote:
Divorce and broken homes are ever more common. Research shows that the children of broken homes are more prone to depression in adulthood. To protect children, the state should act to try to make family life more manageable, through better school hours, flexible hours at work, means-tested childcare, and maternity and paternity leave. Parenting classes should also be compulsory in the school curriculum and an automatic part of antenatal care.

WTF? Compulsory parenting classes??? If that's the cure for unhappiness, I'd rather have the disease. But it's an interesting article, and I found its arguments useful to explore on a 'know your enemy' basis.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 12:42 pm
Many so-called professionals in education and government are scary people; they want to impose their own beliefs on everybody else.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 06:12 am
Thomas wrote:
Prospect, an English magazine, has a comprehensive title story on happiness research an its political implications. Being a libertarian, most of these policy implications give me the creeps. For example:

Quote:
Divorce and broken homes are ever more common. Research shows that the children of broken homes are more prone to depression in adulthood. To protect children, the state should act to try to make family life more manageable, through better school hours, flexible hours at work, means-tested childcare, and maternity and paternity leave. Parenting classes should also be compulsory in the school curriculum and an automatic part of antenatal care.

WTF? Compulsory parenting classes??? If that's the cure for unhappiness, I'd rather have the disease. But it's an interesting article, and I found its arguments useful to explore on a 'know your enemy' basis.

Didn't follow the discussion in this thread, just picked up on this post of Thomas's. Compulsory parenting classes sound pretty scary, yes; but then again, it probably sounds scarier than it needs to be. After all, schools (here, at least) now habitually schedule sex education classes; and I for one would have a hard time arguing why its a good thing if children learn about sex in school but not about parenting.

As for the other arguments/measures proposed in this quote, I think each of them is sensible and long-overdue. Of course employers, schools etc should change to more flexible hours and parental leaves. The world has changed since the fifties; there's no longer a housewive at home 24/7, parents who both work have to juggle tasks. Supermarkets have already adapted to that by shifting to more flexible opening hours (they're now open till 10 PM here); it's a question of adapting to the requirements of your target groups, whether those be your employees or customers. The expectation that nowadays, both mother and father are to work but workplace demand is still to run a 9-to-5 (or 6, 7, 8 ...) schedule five days a week is not just a pain in the ass, but quite illogical at that. Flexible part-time jobs, with more work done away from the office, is the future.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:56 am
Compulsory earns an automatic wince, but I do think it would be a good thing for people to take parenting classes -- maybe incentives of some kind. I have a master's in early childhood education fer chrissakes and still got enormous amounts out of the parenting classes (general, childbirth, and breastfeeding) classes I took while pregnant, and was endlessly grateful for them.

One of the great myths of parenting is that you just kind of know what to do. In some broad ways, yes, but there are infinite details that need to be learned.

Article looks interesting (I *still* quote from that "Miswanting" article in the NYT Mag), will get to it soon.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:25 am
sozobe wrote:
Compulsory earns an automatic wince, but I do think it would be a good thing for people to take parenting classes -- maybe incentives of some kind.

Maybe you're right, and my allergy is more against the compulsion and less about the whole business of happiness research. (And if I remember correctly, the main informant in The Futile Pursuit of Happiness makes it a point that he is trying to interpret the world more than change it.)

My allergy is somewhat milder against "incentives of some kind", but only somewhat. Maybe some other examples get my point across more clearly. For instance, a recent finding in happiness research seems to be that married people tend to be happier than divorced ones. I have every reason to trust them on this. But what if Bill Frist and Dennis Hasterd decided, on this argument, to tax couples in no-fault marriages and give tax cuts for couples in harder-to-divorce kinds of marriage? On a similar note, happiness researchers have found out that religious people tend to be happier than heathens like myself. So why not have the government tax agnostics and atheists to subsidize the worship of a supreme being?

It's just incentives, no compulsion -- but on a gut level, my reaction is still strongly allergic. If happiness researchers concentrated on writing self-improvement books instead of lobbying government, I would feel much friendlier towards them. There is much to be said for including a chapter about parenting mechanics in such books, and I'm fine if this chapter suggested that the reader attend a parenting class.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:40 am
But happiness research aside - what about the actual suggestions you quoted the article as making, in your post above? Because that was really what I was reacting to - I havent read up on the rest of the thread.

You quoted the article as suggesting that "to protect children, the state should act to try to make family life more manageable, through better school hours, flexible hours at work, means-tested childcare, and maternity and paternity leave". That sounds like perfectly common sense political wishlist items to me. What gives you the creeps about these 'action points', the compulsoriness of parenting classes aside? (And on that point, again, I'm not much for compulsory anything, but if we give sex ed in the schools why not parenting ed..)
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