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Arab Pundits See Terror Attacks Aiding Sharon

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 11:34 am
It's okay, found it:

Bridging the divide
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steissd
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 12:19 pm
Israel will never agree for a ceasefire only. Regardless of what do the people here think of Mr. Sharon, he is far from being an idiot. Ceasefire will enable Hamas to recover from the damage that was imposed by the Israeli military operations and to renew terror attacks. Unfortunately, part of the Western societies tend to apply double standards. When Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds in '80s, there were no protest rallies in Paris and other European cities. When in September of 1970 the Royal Jordanian army killed more than 10,000 Palestinian rioters, the world was silent as well. When Idi Amin committed wholesale murders of his own citizens, his representatives were not obstructed on the international forums, in the way the Israelis were obstructed in Durban in the fall of 2000 (not sure about exact time). Tribal wars in sub-Saharan Africa bring death toll ten times larger in magnitude than the Mideastern conflict, and the UN does not find necessary to deal with anything except "poor, oppressed" Palestinian terrorists. Only discussions around war in Iraq made this organization to leave this favorite topic of its for a while.
Geneva convention that is being used as a club against Israel by different international bodies was not written especially for IDF. When the opposite side of the conflict does not follow any norms of waging war and considers any measures for achieving its goal to be acceptable, the strict following the international law directives by Israelis may lead to nothing but defeat. And this is not what the Israelis look forward for.
I am not a supporter of the very idea of settllements, but I do not consider them being the main obstacle to peace. If the Palestinians displayed serious peaceful attitudes and readiness to give up the idea to throw Israel to the sea, there would be no more settlements long ago. Just as there are no settlements on the Sinai peninsula. It was returned to Egypt when the latter displayed its will for peace.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 12:37 pm
steissd wrote:

Geneva convention that is being used as a club against Israel by different international bodies was not written especially for IDF. When the opposite side of the conflict does not follow any norms of waging war and considers any measures for achieving its goal to be acceptable, the strict following the international law directives by Israelis may lead to nothing but defeat. And this is not what the Israelis look forward for.


Any law is seen by those who disregard it, as the way leading to a defeat - criminal as well as civilian, adminstrative, social or - as mentioned - international law.

BTW: Which 'Geneva Convention' are you referring at?
[The Geneva Convention often written and spoken of in contemporary news is actually the fourth Geneva Convention ratified in 1949 in the aftermath of World War II. The original Convention grew out concern for wounded soldiers in the late 19th century and has come to encompass the protection of prisoners of war, civilians and civilian non-combatants including reporters, photographers, and religious and medical personnel.]
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steissd
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 12:56 pm
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au1929
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 02:54 pm
Arabs In Israel, But No Jews In P.A.?
The day following the Hardtalk show with Hamas spokesman Mahmoud A-Zahar (mentioned elsewhere in today's news), the same interviewer (Tim Sebastian) asked Yisrael Medad of the Yesha community of Shilo if he would agree, in exchange for a lasting peace agreement, to leave his home or to dismantle his community. Medad's response:
"The Arabs would continue to live in the Jewish state, according to the agreement that you’re talking about, so why should Jews have to leave this area? If the assumption is that Jews and Arabs can't live together, then how is it that Arabs will continue to live in Be'er Sheva, Haifa, and other areas in pre-'67 Israel, while we would have to leave?"

Indeed why? It would seem that expelling Jews from Arab lands is acceptable? There were almost a million Jews expelled or otherwise forced to leave the Arab countries when Israel came into existence, Jews who had lived in those area for thousands of years and that apparently made no impression on the world community. All we hear about is the poor downtrodden Palestinians. I guess the world is inured to prejudice against the Jews.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 03:23 pm
au1929 wrote:

There were almost a million Jews expelled or otherwise forced to leave the Arab countries when Israel came into existence, Jews who had lived in those area for thousands of years and that apparently made no impression on the world community. All we hear about is the poor downtrodden Palestinians. I guess the world is inured to prejudice against the Jews.


In 1948, there lived 650,000 Jews in Israel.

Source: Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics
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steissd
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 03:23 pm
There are more than 100 thousand Jews of Iraqi origin in Israel. They were necessitated to leave Iraq without any property when Israel declared its independence. And the world did not respond to this in any way. When Israel deported to Lebanon a group of leaders of the Hamas terrorist movement, the pressure applied to it by the so-called world public opinion was so strong, that it was necessitated to permit them to return. I know that deportation of the residents of the occupied territories contradicts the international law. But my question is: why international law is mandatory only for Israel, while the Arabs are free to do anything they consider being necessary, and they get punished only if they affect vital interests of the superpowers?
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au1929
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 03:31 pm
Walter
steissd gave you your answer. The same thing happened throughout the Arab nations. These people had been there almost continuosly from biblical times.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 03:32 pm
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au1929
 
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Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 04:29 pm
1948 Jewish population: 150,000
2001: Approximately 1001

One of the longest surviving Jewish communities still lives in Iraq. In 722 B.C.E., the northern tribes of Israel were defeated by Assyria and some Jews were taken to what is now known as Iraq. A larger community was established in 586 B.C.E., when the Babylonians conquered the southern tribes of Israel and enslaved the Jews. In later centuries, the region became more hospitable to Jews and it became the home to some of the world's most prominent scholars who produced the Babylonian Talmud between 500 and 700 C.E. Iraq became an independent state in 1932. The 2,700-year-old Iraqi Jewish community has suffered horrible persecution since that time, particularly as the Zionist drive for a state intensified. In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000. Additional outbreaks of anti-Jewish rioting occurred between 1946-49. After the establishment of Israel in 1948, Zionism became a capital crime. In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000 Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra & Nechemia; another 20,000 were smuggled out through Iran.2 In 1952, Iraq's government barred Jews from emigrating and publicly hanged two Jews after falsely charging them with hurling a bomb at the Baghdad office of the U.S. Information Agency. With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or
restricted to the cities.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 01:26 am
steissd wrote:
They were necessitated to leave Iraq without any property when Israel declared its independence. And the world did not respond to this in any way.


au


Your source says it nearly the same as mine. I just was trying to verify the above.
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Mapleleaf
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 03:30 am
An interesting exchange...
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steissd
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 12:38 pm
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 02:25 pm
From the BBC:
Quote:
Trying to pacify his cabinet members during the tumultuous session discussing the roadmap, Mr Sharon was quoted as telling them: "I don't like the roadmap either, but it's a lesser evil."
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steissd
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 02:51 pm
Of course, Mr. Hinteler, it will be weird if the Israeli government would be happy with making concessions in favor of the Palestinian enemies. Mr. Sharon is a former general, but his surname is not Petaine. But our government is quite realistic and pragmatic, and is also concerned with impact the terror war has on Israeli economy by repelling investors and giving excuses for the Brussels-based EU bureaucrats to impose economic sanctions.
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au1929
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 02:51 pm
Walter
That is no surprise. He had to make the choice between what he would like and the chance for peace. He chose the hope of peace. IMO the chance of peace unfortunately is slim. I do not believe that the New, PA regime can reign in the terrorist organizations. If they cannot and the terrorism continues all bets are off.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 02:55 pm
Actually, I'm not aware of any sanctions by "EU-bureaucrats", but I remember that EU-parliament made some resolutions a year back or so.
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au1929
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 02:56 pm
Gov't Votes To Accept Palestinian State - With Reservations

The Israeli Government voted to accept the Road Map plan today, recognizing a Palestinian state for the first time. Twelve ministers voted for the plan: Five from the Shinui party, and seven Likud ministers: Ariel Sharon, Sha'ul Mofaz, Silvan Shalom, Meir Sheetrit, Tzippy Livny, Gideon Ezra, and Ehud Olmert.

Ministers Binyamin Netanyahu, Tzachi HaNegbi, Limor Livnat, and Danny Naveh - all of the Likud - abstained.

Seven ministers opposed the plan: Uzi Landau and Yisrael Katz (Likud); Effie Eitam and Zevulun Orlev (NRP); Benny Elon and Avigdor Lieberman (National Union); and Natan Sharansky (Likud-Yisrael B'Aliyah).

The Cabinet meeting lasted close to six hours, and was very stormy at times. Each minister was given a chance to speak. The exact wording of the approved resolution reads as follows:
"The Government of Israel announces that it approves the declaration of the Prime Minister [see item 3 below] regarding the acceptance of the steps included in the Road Map, and resolves that the implementation of the plan will take place contingent upon the 14 comments that Israel submitted to the Americans."

The Cabinet also voted 16-1 that it would not accept the Arabs' claimed "right of return." Only Minister Benny Elon voted against it, explaining that the resolution rules out the return of Arab refugees to the State of Israel - but not to Judea and Samaria. Elon has long said that an influx of millions of Arabs to Yesha would be a tremendous demographic danger to Israel.

Under the banner, "The Road Map is Worse than Oslo," the Yesha Council, Women in Green, and Jewish Leadership organized protests opposite the Prime Minister's Office this morning. Yesha leaders say that a Palestinian state will be a calamity for Israel, and demanded that the Road Map be voted down.

The Likud Party ministers were strongly divided this morning, and Prime Minister Sharon met with them before the Cabinet meeting today. The main threat that Sharon hung over the ministers' heads was that a rejection of the Road Map would lead to a crisis between Jerusalem and the White House. He further tried to convince the ministers to support the plan by noting a "direct connection between Israel's sorry economic state and the security situation."

Mr. Sharon is expected to meet with Palestinian Authority leader Abu Mazen tomorrow, for the second time.
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steissd
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 03:00 pm
I absolutely agree that the real reasons of acceptance of the Roadmap pertain to economy. Israel cannot be eliminated by any number of the terror attack, and it is able to make the terrorists pay for it the real price. But, unfortunately, absence of natural resources does not enable Israel to maintain autarchic economy, and it is strongly dependent on the global trade. And current situation impairs Israeli abilities to participate in it.
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au1929
 
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Reply Mon 26 May, 2003 10:48 am
The following question was voiced in my response on Sat May 24 when talking about Jews living on the wast bank and Gaza

The Arabs would continue to live in the Jewish state, according to the agreement that youre talking about <road map>, so why should Jews have to leave this area? If the assumption is that Jews and Arabs can't live together, then how is it that Arabs will continue to live in Be'er Sheva, Haifa, and other areas in pre-'67 Israel, while we would have to leave?"

Indeed why?
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