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America... Spying on Americans II

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 01:49 pm
So, by your example then Tico, we could say the same thing about this ruling.

If it had gone the other way criminals would have benefited. (since a criminal enterprise would have been allowed to continue.)

What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 02:07 pm
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.

Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 02:26 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.


This is a non-sequitor. You haven't provided any actual evidence that this decision will benefit terrorists in any way.

Quote:
Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?


This is a straw man, or a request for one. That hasn't been anyone's argument; the argument instead is that the program is illegal, and this has always been the argument. It is difficult for a layperson to judge the effectiveness of this illegal program, as we are not allowed to become acquainted with the details.

You can say that people who support this decision have nothing to cheer about, but that's a lie; we most certainly do have much to cheer about. This is the first step in reversing a program which erodes the civil liberties of Americans. That in itself is enough to cheer.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 02:40 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.


This is a non-sequitor. You haven't provided any actual evidence that this decision will benefit terrorists in any way.


It's not a non sequitur ... it was responsive to the question asked by parados.

I am only relying on logic here. If the program has aided the government in busting a terrorist plot in the past, then it stands to reason it will bust a terrorist plot in the future.

Quote:
Quote:
Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?


This is a straw man, or a request for one. That hasn't been anyone's argument; the argument instead is that the program is illegal, and this has always been the argument. It is difficult for a layperson to judge the effectiveness of this illegal program, as we are not allowed to become acquainted with the details.

...

Cycloptichorn


No strawman. And it certainly seems to be parados' argument, or at least part of it: "Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric."
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 03:50 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.

Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?


According to the Bush Administration, the "program in question" targets individuals whom the government has reason to believe are associated with Al Qaida. If this claim is true, it would be no problem for the Bush Administration to obtain a FISA warrant.

As far as the NYT article goes, it was stated, "Several officials said the eavesdropping program had helped uncover a plot by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker and naturalized citizen who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting Al Qaeda by planning to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches." If the government had reason to target Faris for electronic surveillance due to the exigency of the situation, FISA allowed the government to do so immediately and seek a warrant within 72 hours of commencing the electronic surveillance.

FISA merely places a check upon the executive branch to ensure that it is not abusing its power and violating the Constitution. There is no reason why the government couldn't have uncovered Faris's plot by complying with FISA.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 07:38 pm
Exactly Debra.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:49 am
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/6657/060817amendedxgw9.gif
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:52 am
Sigh, more excrement from you on this topic, Tico?

Nothing in this judge's decision helps foreign terrorists in any way. Authorities who wish to spy upon them are still free to apply for, and be granted, a warrant to do so by the FISA courts. No rights are being granted to non-US citizens whatsoever. So what is the purpose of your cartoon?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:00 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So what is the purpose of your cartoon?


I like it. Feel free to ignore it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:05 am
I just hate to see you screw up the argument so badly; though your side was dealt a significant blow yesterday, so I understand that you are feeling a little angsty.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:55 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sigh, more excrement from you on this topic, Tico?

Nothing in this judge's decision helps foreign terrorists in any way. Authorities who wish to spy upon them are still free to apply for, and be granted, a warrant to do so by the FISA courts. No rights are being granted to non-US citizens whatsoever. So what is the purpose of your cartoon?

Cycloptichorn



Glenn Greenwald tells us the purpose:

Quote:
Saturday, August 12, 2006

Legal surveillance, not illegal eavesdropping, stopped the U.K. terrorist attacks

As I noted on Thursday, Bush supporters have been attempting to exploit the U.K. terrorist plot to bolster support for an array of extremist and lawless Bush policies -- from warrantless eavesdropping to torture -- even though there is not a shred of evidence that any of those policies played any role whatsoever, either in the U.S. or England, in impeding this plot....

... There is no reason for the Bush administration to eavesdrop in secret, with no judicial oversight, and in violation of the law precisely because the legal framework that has been in place for the last 28 years empowers the government to eavesdrop aggressively on all of the terrorists they want, with ease....

Only Bush followers could point to a successful law enforcement operation which, by all appearances, complied with the law, and try to use it to argue how necessary it is that the law be broken. That is the central myth at the heart of the Bush desire for increased authoritarian measures -- that there is a forced choice between protection from terrorist threats and the rule of law.

That is a false choice. We can be a country which lives under the rule of law and which effectively battles terrorism -- just as we were a country which lived under the rule of law (including FISA) as we battled communism and a whole array of other external threats. Despite the bizarre effort by Bush followers to use this U.K. plot to argue for the need for the President to break the law, it actually demonstrates precisely the opposite.


http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/

Ticomaya is a Bush follower who embraces and spreads the LIE that we must choose between protecting ourselves from terrorism or complying with the rule of law. To emphasize this FALSE CHOICE, he tells us that compliance with the Constitution is a suicide pact and he shows us a cartoon depicting the arm of the ACLU writing in the words "AND FOREIGN TERRORISTS" into the preamble.

Tico has amply demonstrated that he is no better than the fear-mongering tyrants and their foolish followers who agreed to suspend civil rights protected by the German constitution after the fire bombing of the Reichstag in 1933. We all know that led to the totalitarian reign of the Nazi regime with Hitler at its helm. Because the use of scare tactics has proven successful in the past, why not use scare tactics again in order to empower the Bush regime?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:10 pm
You have demonstrated you are no better than the ACLU, Debra. And no, that is not a compliment.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I just hate to see you screw up the argument so badly; though your side was dealt a significant blow yesterday, so I understand that you are feeling a little angsty.

Cycloptichorn


The plaintiffs' forum-shopped their way up to Carter-appointee Judge Taylor in Michigan and got a favorable ruling. I trust the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals will have a different view, and that's why I earlier said you are celebrating too early.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:22 pm
Quote:
August 18, 2006, 1:14 a.m.
Surveilling Injustice
By The Editors


Once upon a time, the courts of the United States acted in the interests of the United States. They knew that international affairs, the conduct of war, and the protection of Americans from foreign threats stood far beyond the judicial ken. As Supreme Court justice Robert Jackson wrote in 1936, sensitive matters of foreign policy and national security involve "decisions of a kind for which the Judiciary has neither aptitude, facilities nor responsibility and which has long been held to belong in the domain of political power not subject to judicial intrusion or inquiry."

Enter Anna Diggs Taylor, chief judge of the federal district court in Detroit. She has just purported to find unconstitutional the Bush administration's Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) ?- an early-warning system crucial to protecting the nation from attack. In so doing, she has become the latest jurist to illustrate how far we have strayed from Justice Jackson's wisdom.

The TSP, carried out by the National Security Agency, is a classic signals-intelligence initiative of the type central to every successful American war effort since the founding. The idea is to penetrate enemy communications and thwart attacks. The NSA monitors international communications, including those into and out of the United States, when there is a reasonable basis to believe that an al Qaeda operative is on at least one end of the conversation.

Having witnessed 9/11, Americans broadly support the TSP. But ever since the end of 2005 ?- when government officials illegally disclosed its existence to the New York Times, which promptly compromised it ?- it has come under assault from the anti-American Left, civil-liberties extremists, and Muslim activists.

To block litigation by this coalition from providing the enemy with incalculably valuable intelligence, the administration invoked the "state-secrets privilege" ?- a 150-year-old legal tool that allows the federal government to dismiss cases that might compromise national-defense information. This should have been the end of the story. Taylor, however, reasoned that the state-secrets privilege only protected the government from litigation that would require it to disclose informants, and did not apply to other kinds of intelligence collection.

In Justice Jackson's day, it would have been taken for granted that intercepting enemy communications into and out of the United States is vital to the prosecution of a war, and that the state should be protected from having to reveal information that would compromise such efforts. For Judge Taylor, though, there are more important interests than protecting Americans from attack. There are lawyers who want to represent al Qaeda sympathizers; there are journalists who want to write about al Qaeda sympathizers; there are Muslim activist groups who want to agitate on behalf of al Qaeda sympathizers.

And so she found that the plaintiffs in the case ?- mainly attorneys and journalists ?- had standing to sue. Standing rules of course require a plaintiff to establish that he has suffered a unique, concrete injury that can be redressed by court action. They are designed to ensure that matters of general rather than individual concern are decided by the political branches accountable to the public, not by the courts. Yet Taylor found, in flat contravention of Supreme Court precedent, that the plaintiffs were harmed because both they and the al Qaeda suspects they wished to contact had been "chilled" from communicating.

This reasoning is ludicrous. Americans have no reasonable expectation of privacy when seeking to communicate with persons outside the United States. U.S. privacy law consequently does not ?- cannot ?- apply. Moreover, virtually every intelligence agency in the world is pursuing al Qaeda operatives and intercepting their communications. In Judge Taylor's perfect world, only the U.S. ?- the primary target of al Qaeda ?- would be forbidden to do so.

To justify her finding that the plaintiffs had standing to sue, she could do nothing but wave the banner of the imperial judiciary. If the plaintiffs lacked standing, she fretted, the "the President's action in warrantless wiretapping . . . would be immunized from judicial scrutiny." But judicial scrutiny is the very antithesis of what is supposed to happen here. The Supreme Court affirmed in 1991 that, in a close case (which this isn't), judges are to "presume that federal courts lack jurisdiction."

In short, Judge Taylor ran roughshod over all the rules that should have kept her from deciding this case in the first place. But decide it she did, finding that the TSP violates the separation of powers and the Fourth Amendment because it does not seek judicial warrants under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to authorize its activities. She ruled thus notwithstanding that every federal appellate court to consider the issue, including the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review itself, had previously found that the president has inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless wiretapping to protect the nation from external threats.

In disregarding this consensus, she effectively claimed that the only public official elected by all Americans ?- an official whose primary duty happens to be safeguarding the security of the United States ?- is powerless to order surveillance against an enemy in wartime unless a federal judge says he can. The Framers would be appalled. And so should we.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:30 pm
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it SECURES the blessings of liberty to "we the people."

Ticomaya claims it is NOT a compliment to be a person who respects the Constitution.

On the other hand, Ticomaya thinks it is a compliment to himself that he is a spreader of lies and false choices.

Warped.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:32 pm
Good stuff on National Review today:

Quote:
August 18, 2006, 3:47 a.m.
Amateur Hour?
A judge's first-year failing-grade opinion.
By Bryan Cunningham


The Honorable Anna Diggs-Taylor probably means well. The lone judge in American history to order a president to halt in wartime a foreign-intelligence-collection program that has undoubtedly saved lives probably sympathizes with the journalists, and others, who are suing to stop the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) in which NSA intercepts foreign-U.S. terrorist communications. She probably feels in her heart the program is wrong, and undoubtedly hears the footsteps of the federal judicial panel moving towards taking this case away from her and consolidating it with others.

We can sympathize with her motives, and even share some of her gut feelings of uneasiness about the program. But we cannot accept the stunningly amateurish piece of, I hesitate even to call it legal work, by which she purports to make our government go deaf and dumb to those would murder us en masse. Her bosses on the Court of Appeals and/or the United States Supreme Court will not accept it.

Much will be said about this opinion in the coming days. I'll start with this: I wouldn't accept this utterly unsupported, constitutionally and logically bankrupt collection of musings from a first-year law student, much less a new lawyer at my firm. Why not? Herewith, a start at a very long list of what's wrong with Judge Taylor's opinion.

Process Fouls. When you sue your plumber over a disputed $50 invoice, before deciding who wins, the judge is required to jump through some minor constitutional hoops like actually hearing evidence (as opposed to press reports), holding hearings, and reading and understanding the briefs filed and the laws at issue. Judge Taylor appears to have taken none of these rudimentary steps before issuing one of the most sweeping wartime legal rulings in our nation's history. Experts on both sides agree it is impossible to decide the crucial Fourth and First Amendment issues in this case without detailed, factual knowledge of precisely what the government is doing (see, e.g., the brief I filed with the Washington Legal Foundation, at www.morgancunningham.net, and the excellent testimony of David Kris, at http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2006_hr/index.html). Judge Taylor apparently needs no more facts than what she reads in the papers.

Worse, the judge clearly failed to do enough homework to understand the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act itself, much less the Fourth Amendment. She gets basic provisions of the statute itself wrong, e.g., apparently believing that a provision explicitly dealing with foreign agent/non-U.S. persons communications constitutes an "exception" to FISA's warrant requirements. She also seems to make the elementary and fatal mistake made by many commentators, that the government can, under FISA, listen in on conversations for 72 hours without meeting FISA's substantive and procedural tests. This is simply false. NSA cannot lawfully, under FISA, listen to a single syllable of a covered communication until it can prove to the Attorney General (usually in writing) that it can jump through each and every one of FISA's procedural and substantive hoops. These basic errors could have been corrected had the court bothered to gather any evidence or hold substantive hearings.

More worrisome still are the judge's breathtaking mistakes in analyzing the Fourth and First Amendments?-errors that would earn our first-year law student an "F." Here's one of several examples: The judge asserts that the Fourth Amendment, in all cases, "requires prior warrants for any reasonable search, based upon prior-existing probable cause." She cites no legal authority whatsoever for this colossal misstatement of the law, because none exists. Instead, there are numerous situations where our courts have found no prior warrant is required, so long as a search is "reasonable." Fatal to her position is the very Supreme Court case she herself cites. This landmark 1972 electronic-surveillance decision, the Keith case, makes clear that, though it establishes a warrant requirement for purely domestic security cases (decidedly not what the TSP is, raising the alarming possibility the judge may think the TSP is a "domestic" program), the Fourth Amendment does not always require a prior warrant for government searches. Rather, the need for warrants depends on a balancing of the government's legitimate needs, such as protecting us from attack, against other constitutional interests.

Lest there be any doubt as to whether Keith supported Judge Taylor's view about the warrant requirement for communications with overseas terrorist groups, the Keith court stated that "the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country."

While Keith at least left open the question, a post-FISA case, also cited by Judge Taylor herself (In re Falvey), could not have more clearly dispensed with her claimed warrant requirement: "When, therefore, the President has, as his primary purpose, the accumulation of foreign intelligence information, his exercise of Article II power to conduct foreign affairs is not constitutionally hamstrung by the need to obtain prior judicial approval before engaging in wiretapping."

Apparently Judge Taylor failed to read that portion of the Falvey opinion. She makes similarly striking mistakes on the issues of standing and separation-of-powers. Which brings us to the heart of the problem with the judge's missive.

Ignoring Contrary Authority. Under legal-ethics rules, deliberately failing to call to a court's attention legal authority contrary to one's position is grounds for disciplinary action. In addition to the above, here are several more examples of this unpardonable legal sin in Judge Taylor's opinion.

Appeals Court Cherry-Picking. The judge relies heavily on the D. C. Circuit Court of Appeals plurality (less than majority) opinion in Zweibon v. Mitchell. That case suggests in dicta (language not necessary to decide the case, and, therefore, of no precedential value) that all electronic surveillance, even for foreign intelligence involving an overseas connection, may require prior warrants. Judge Taylor fails to mention, however, that, while Zweibon didn't actually reach this question, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review (the appellate court set up explicitly to have the foreign-intelligence and national-security expertise Judge Taylor clearly lacks) did. Here's what it said (in 2002): "[A]ll . . . courts to have decided the issue, held the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.'

Utterly ignoring this 2002 FISA Court of Review opinion, as well as the numerous 1970s-'80s federal appeals and district court decisions directly opposed to her position, Judge Taylor offers instead an extended discussion of a 1765 case from England.

Selective Reading Redux. The judge discusses at length Justice Jackson's concurring opinion in Youngstown Sheet and Tube, without bothering to mention:

?-that Justice Jackson himself, in that very opinion, disavowed the application of the opinion beyond that case's primarily domestic context (seizure of U.S. steel mills in the face of a union strike);

?-that our courts long after Youngstown emphasized its limitations to primarily domestic cases and that other legal authorities more appropriately govern primarily foreign-affairs/foreign-intelligence-collection cases, such as the TSP; or

?-most importantly, the entire line of Supreme Court and other decisions, most famously including Curtiss-Wright Export, cited many times since Youngstown, making clear the president's constitutional primacy in foreign-affairs/foreign-intelligence collection, upon which neither Congress nor the courts may intrude.

Lawyers and judges are free to argue that contrary authority does not control a particular decision. They are not free ethically to disregard the vast majority of cases rejecting their position, selectively citing the single case arguably supporting them.

Trivial Pursuit. Perhaps most disturbing about the judge's opinion is the trivial way it treats the Fourth and First Amendments to our Constitution. In landmark cases balancing wartime needs with cherished principles in the Bill of Rights, our great judges and justices have painstakingly analyzed all applicable authority, soberly balancing our crucial national interests and values. Judge Taylor spends a total of three double-spaced pages addressing the Fourth Amendment and little more than two addressing the First Amendment. Her reasoning, to the extent one can follow it, is little more than one would find in watching a surreal "Schoolhouse Rock" episode. The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches. All searches without warrants are unreasonable (which, as noted above, is flatly wrong). Therefore, with no case support cited, Judge Taylor finds the TSP unconstitutional. The First Amendment protects free speech, which, defying the dictionary meaning of the word, she asserts the TSP "regulates." FISA prohibits targeting persons for surveillance solely for activities protected by the First Amendment (FISA, of course, being a statute, not a constitutional provision, and the administration having stated publicly they do not target individuals on that basis). Therefore, says Her Honor, the TSP is unconstitutional.

Such trivial (if not incomprehensible) legal analysis would be unacceptable in our $50 plumbing-bill case. Using it to justify shutting down a program protecting us from terrorist attack in war is tantamount to an abrogation of the judge's oath to support and defend the Constitution. Though unlikely based on what has been publicly reported, it is possible that a court armed with all the facts could conclude that the TSP runs afoul of the First or Fourth Amendments. It is not possible to decide that based on press reports and platitudes.

Amateur hour? Judge Taylor, a law professor, has been on the bench since 1979. She is decidedly not an amateur. So, how to explain her first-year failing-grade opinion? Regrettably, the only plausible explanation is that she wanted the result she wanted and was willing to ignore and misread vast portions of constitutional law to get there, gambling the lives and security of her fellow Americans in the bargain.

Whatever Judge Taylor's motives, it is critical to understand the impact of her decision, were it allowed to stand. Among many damaging results, the Terrorist Surveillance Program, publicly credited not 72 hours ago with helping to prevent the "9/11 Part 2" British airline bombings, will be shut down and our enemies will know it. Worse, neither politically accountable branch of government (even working together) would be able to modify FISA in a way that did not require prior judicial warrants based on probable cause and particularity as to the person targeted. In other words, there would be no lawful way, short of amending the Constitution, to ever collect catastrophic-terrorist-attack warning information unless we knew in advance it was coming, and the identities of the precise individuals who were going to communicate it.

As Judge Taylor's new favorite justice, Robert Jackson himself, warned, the courts should not "convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact." I will put my daughters to bed tonight confident that the Court of Appeals and our Supreme Court will not allow Judge Taylor's giant step in that direction to stand.

?- Bryan Cunningham served in senior positions in the CIA and as a federal prosecutor under President Clinton, and as deputy legal adviser to the National Security Council under President George W. Bush. He is a private information security and privacy lawyer at Morgan & Cunningham LLC in Denver, Colorado, and a member of the Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age. Along with the Washington Legal Foundation, he filed an amicus brief in this case, and has testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on the Terrorist Surveillance Program.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:33 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it SECURES the blessings of liberty to "we the people."

Ticomaya claims it is NOT a compliment to be a person who respects the Constitution.

On the other hand, Ticomaya thinks it is a compliment to himself that he is a spreader of lies and false choices.

Warped.


Speaking of "warped," the ACLU only respects its warped version of the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:05 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it SECURES the blessings of liberty to "we the people."

Ticomaya claims it is NOT a compliment to be a person who respects the Constitution.

On the other hand, Ticomaya thinks it is a compliment to himself that he is a spreader of lies and false choices.

Warped.


Speaking of "warped," the ACLU only respects its warped version of the Constitution.



You're spreading more lies.

The articles you are posting are dishonest from beginning to end. Bush supporters refuse to tell the truth.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 03:52 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Bush supporters refuse to tell the truth.


Look everyone ... more lies from Debra_Law.
0 Replies
 
coachryan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:38 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Bush supporters refuse to tell the truth.


I am rubber you are glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

Rolling Eyes
When you can't support your argument stick to the bully techniques that served you so well in the fifth grade, huh Tico?

The simple fact is there is a legal way to eavesdrop on overseas communication, effectively shown by the recent busts in England. This administration simply considers itself above the law.

You can throw out irresponsible, scare-tactic rhetoric all you want but it all boils down to those two arguments. Feel free to "nya-nya-nya-nya-boo-boo" me all you want. It only makes your BS more apparent.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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