0
   

America... Spying on Americans II

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 01:49 pm
So, by your example then Tico, we could say the same thing about this ruling.

If it had gone the other way criminals would have benefited. (since a criminal enterprise would have been allowed to continue.)

What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 02:07 pm
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.

Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 02:26 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.


This is a non-sequitor. You haven't provided any actual evidence that this decision will benefit terrorists in any way.

Quote:
Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?


This is a straw man, or a request for one. That hasn't been anyone's argument; the argument instead is that the program is illegal, and this has always been the argument. It is difficult for a layperson to judge the effectiveness of this illegal program, as we are not allowed to become acquainted with the details.

You can say that people who support this decision have nothing to cheer about, but that's a lie; we most certainly do have much to cheer about. This is the first step in reversing a program which erodes the civil liberties of Americans. That in itself is enough to cheer.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 02:40 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.


This is a non-sequitor. You haven't provided any actual evidence that this decision will benefit terrorists in any way.


It's not a non sequitur ... it was responsive to the question asked by parados.

I am only relying on logic here. If the program has aided the government in busting a terrorist plot in the past, then it stands to reason it will bust a terrorist plot in the future.

Quote:
Quote:
Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?


This is a straw man, or a request for one. That hasn't been anyone's argument; the argument instead is that the program is illegal, and this has always been the argument. It is difficult for a layperson to judge the effectiveness of this illegal program, as we are not allowed to become acquainted with the details.

...

Cycloptichorn


No strawman. And it certainly seems to be parados' argument, or at least part of it: "Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric."
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 03:50 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that terrorists will benefit from this ruling? I am betting you have none. Any evidence of this program catching a single terrorist? Your statement still makes no sense Tico. Until you can provide evidence of how this program actually worked against a terrorist and how they would now be free to do what they aren't already doing your statement is nothing but empty rhetoric.


You need only go to the NYT article that broke the story to find an example of the program in question working.

Are you willing to go out on a limb right now and claim the program has done nothing to aid the battle against terrorism?


According to the Bush Administration, the "program in question" targets individuals whom the government has reason to believe are associated with Al Qaida. If this claim is true, it would be no problem for the Bush Administration to obtain a FISA warrant.

As far as the NYT article goes, it was stated, "Several officials said the eavesdropping program had helped uncover a plot by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker and naturalized citizen who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting Al Qaeda by planning to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches." If the government had reason to target Faris for electronic surveillance due to the exigency of the situation, FISA allowed the government to do so immediately and seek a warrant within 72 hours of commencing the electronic surveillance.

FISA merely places a check upon the executive branch to ensure that it is not abusing its power and violating the Constitution. There is no reason why the government couldn't have uncovered Faris's plot by complying with FISA.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 07:38 pm
Exactly Debra.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:49 am
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/6657/060817amendedxgw9.gif
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:52 am
Sigh, more excrement from you on this topic, Tico?

Nothing in this judge's decision helps foreign terrorists in any way. Authorities who wish to spy upon them are still free to apply for, and be granted, a warrant to do so by the FISA courts. No rights are being granted to non-US citizens whatsoever. So what is the purpose of your cartoon?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:00 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So what is the purpose of your cartoon?


I like it. Feel free to ignore it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:05 am
I just hate to see you screw up the argument so badly; though your side was dealt a significant blow yesterday, so I understand that you are feeling a little angsty.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:55 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sigh, more excrement from you on this topic, Tico?

Nothing in this judge's decision helps foreign terrorists in any way. Authorities who wish to spy upon them are still free to apply for, and be granted, a warrant to do so by the FISA courts. No rights are being granted to non-US citizens whatsoever. So what is the purpose of your cartoon?

Cycloptichorn



Glenn Greenwald tells us the purpose:

Quote:
Saturday, August 12, 2006

Legal surveillance, not illegal eavesdropping, stopped the U.K. terrorist attacks

As I noted on Thursday, Bush supporters have been attempting to exploit the U.K. terrorist plot to bolster support for an array of extremist and lawless Bush policies -- from warrantless eavesdropping to torture -- even though there is not a shred of evidence that any of those policies played any role whatsoever, either in the U.S. or England, in impeding this plot....

... There is no reason for the Bush administration to eavesdrop in secret, with no judicial oversight, and in violation of the law precisely because the legal framework that has been in place for the last 28 years empowers the government to eavesdrop aggressively on all of the terrorists they want, with ease....

Only Bush followers could point to a successful law enforcement operation which, by all appearances, complied with the law, and try to use it to argue how necessary it is that the law be broken. That is the central myth at the heart of the Bush desire for increased authoritarian measures -- that there is a forced choice between protection from terrorist threats and the rule of law.

That is a false choice. We can be a country which lives under the rule of law and which effectively battles terrorism -- just as we were a country which lived under the rule of law (including FISA) as we battled communism and a whole array of other external threats. Despite the bizarre effort by Bush followers to use this U.K. plot to argue for the need for the President to break the law, it actually demonstrates precisely the opposite.


http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/

Ticomaya is a Bush follower who embraces and spreads the LIE that we must choose between protecting ourselves from terrorism or complying with the rule of law. To emphasize this FALSE CHOICE, he tells us that compliance with the Constitution is a suicide pact and he shows us a cartoon depicting the arm of the ACLU writing in the words "AND FOREIGN TERRORISTS" into the preamble.

Tico has amply demonstrated that he is no better than the fear-mongering tyrants and their foolish followers who agreed to suspend civil rights protected by the German constitution after the fire bombing of the Reichstag in 1933. We all know that led to the totalitarian reign of the Nazi regime with Hitler at its helm. Because the use of scare tactics has proven successful in the past, why not use scare tactics again in order to empower the Bush regime?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:10 pm
You have demonstrated you are no better than the ACLU, Debra. And no, that is not a compliment.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I just hate to see you screw up the argument so badly; though your side was dealt a significant blow yesterday, so I understand that you are feeling a little angsty.

Cycloptichorn


The plaintiffs' forum-shopped their way up to Carter-appointee Judge Taylor in Michigan and got a favorable ruling. I trust the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals will have a different view, and that's why I earlier said you are celebrating too early.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:22 pm
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:30 pm
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it SECURES the blessings of liberty to "we the people."

Ticomaya claims it is NOT a compliment to be a person who respects the Constitution.

On the other hand, Ticomaya thinks it is a compliment to himself that he is a spreader of lies and false choices.

Warped.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:32 pm
Good stuff on National Review today:

Quote:
August 18, 2006, 3:47 a.m.
Amateur Hour?
A judge's first-year failing-grade opinion.
By Bryan Cunningham


The Honorable Anna Diggs-Taylor probably means well. The lone judge in American history to order a president to halt in wartime a foreign-intelligence-collection program that has undoubtedly saved lives probably sympathizes with the journalists, and others, who are suing to stop the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) in which NSA intercepts foreign-U.S. terrorist communications. She probably feels in her heart the program is wrong, and undoubtedly hears the footsteps of the federal judicial panel moving towards taking this case away from her and consolidating it with others.

We can sympathize with her motives, and even share some of her gut feelings of uneasiness about the program. But we cannot accept the stunningly amateurish piece of, I hesitate even to call it legal work, by which she purports to make our government go deaf and dumb to those would murder us en masse. Her bosses on the Court of Appeals and/or the United States Supreme Court will not accept it.

Much will be said about this opinion in the coming days. I'll start with this: I wouldn't accept this utterly unsupported, constitutionally and logically bankrupt collection of musings from a first-year law student, much less a new lawyer at my firm. Why not? Herewith, a start at a very long list of what's wrong with Judge Taylor's opinion.

Process Fouls.Ignoring Contrary Authority. Under legal-ethics rules, deliberately failing to call to a court's attention legal authority contrary to one's position is grounds for disciplinary action. In addition to the above, here are several more examples of this unpardonable legal sin in Judge Taylor's opinion.

Appeals Court Cherry-Picking. The judge relies heavily on the D. C. Circuit Court of Appeals plurality (less than majority) opinion in Zweibon v. Mitchell. That case suggests in dicta (language not necessary to decide the case, and, therefore, of no precedential value) that all electronic surveillance, even for foreign intelligence involving an overseas connection, may require prior warrants. Judge Taylor fails to mention, however, that, while Zweibon didn't actually reach this question, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review (the appellate court set up explicitly to have the foreign-intelligence and national-security expertise Judge Taylor clearly lacks) did. Here's what it said (in 2002): "[A]ll . . . courts to have decided the issue, held the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.'

Utterly ignoring this 2002 FISA Court of Review opinion, as well as the numerous 1970s-'80s federal appeals and district court decisions directly opposed to her position, Judge Taylor offers instead an extended discussion of a 1765 case from England.

Selective Reading Redux. Trivial Pursuit. Perhaps most disturbing about the judge's opinion is the trivial way it treats the Fourth and First Amendments to our Constitution. In landmark cases balancing wartime needs with cherished principles in the Bill of Rights, our great judges and justices have painstakingly analyzed all applicable authority, soberly balancing our crucial national interests and values. Judge Taylor spends a total of three double-spaced pages addressing the Fourth Amendment and little more than two addressing the First Amendment. Her reasoning, to the extent one can follow it, is little more than one would find in watching a surreal "Schoolhouse Rock" episode. The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches. All searches without warrants are unreasonable (which, as noted above, is flatly wrong). Therefore, with no case support cited, Judge Taylor finds the TSP unconstitutional. The First Amendment protects free speech, which, defying the dictionary meaning of the word, she asserts the TSP "regulates." FISA prohibits targeting persons for surveillance solely for activities protected by the First Amendment (FISA, of course, being a statute, not a constitutional provision, and the administration having stated publicly they do not target individuals on that basis). Therefore, says Her Honor, the TSP is unconstitutional.

Such trivial (if not incomprehensible) legal analysis would be unacceptable in our $50 plumbing-bill case. Using it to justify shutting down a program protecting us from terrorist attack in war is tantamount to an abrogation of the judge's oath to support and defend the Constitution. Though unlikely based on what has been publicly reported, it is possible that a court armed with all the facts could conclude that the TSP runs afoul of the First or Fourth Amendments. It is not possible to decide that based on press reports and platitudes.

Amateur hour? Judge Taylor, a law professor, has been on the bench since 1979. She is decidedly not an amateur. So, how to explain her first-year failing-grade opinion? Regrettably, the only plausible explanation is that she wanted the result she wanted and was willing to ignore and misread vast portions of constitutional law to get there, gambling the lives and security of her fellow Americans in the bargain.

Whatever Judge Taylor's motives, it is critical to understand the impact of her decision, were it allowed to stand. Among many damaging results, the Terrorist Surveillance Program, publicly credited not 72 hours ago with helping to prevent the "9/11 Part 2" British airline bombings, will be shut down and our enemies will know it. Worse, neither politically accountable branch of government (even working together) would be able to modify FISA in a way that did not require prior judicial warrants based on probable cause and particularity as to the person targeted. In other words, there would be no lawful way, short of amending the Constitution, to ever collect catastrophic-terrorist-attack warning information unless we knew in advance it was coming, and the identities of the precise individuals who were going to communicate it.

As Judge Taylor's new favorite justice, Robert Jackson himself, warned, the courts should not "convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact." I will put my daughters to bed tonight confident that the Court of Appeals and our Supreme Court will not allow Judge Taylor's giant step in that direction to stand.Bryan Cunningham served in senior positions in the CIA and as a federal prosecutor under President Clinton, and as deputy legal adviser to the National Security Council under President George W. Bush. He is a private information security and privacy lawyer at Morgan & Cunningham LLC in Denver, Colorado, and a member of the Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age. Along with the Washington Legal Foundation, he filed an amicus brief in this case, and has testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on the Terrorist Surveillance Program.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:33 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it SECURES the blessings of liberty to "we the people."

Ticomaya claims it is NOT a compliment to be a person who respects the Constitution.

On the other hand, Ticomaya thinks it is a compliment to himself that he is a spreader of lies and false choices.

Warped.


Speaking of "warped," the ACLU only respects its warped version of the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:05 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it SECURES the blessings of liberty to "we the people."

Ticomaya claims it is NOT a compliment to be a person who respects the Constitution.

On the other hand, Ticomaya thinks it is a compliment to himself that he is a spreader of lies and false choices.

Warped.


Speaking of "warped," the ACLU only respects its warped version of the Constitution.



You're spreading more lies.

The articles you are posting are dishonest from beginning to end. Bush supporters refuse to tell the truth.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 03:52 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Bush supporters refuse to tell the truth.


Look everyone ... more lies from Debra_Law.
0 Replies
 
coachryan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:38 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Bush supporters refuse to tell the truth.


I am rubber you are glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

Rolling Eyes
When you can't support your argument stick to the bully techniques that served you so well in the fifth grade, huh Tico?

The simple fact is there is a legal way to eavesdrop on overseas communication, effectively shown by the recent busts in England. This administration simply considers itself above the law.

You can throw out irresponsible, scare-tactic rhetoric all you want but it all boils down to those two arguments. Feel free to "nya-nya-nya-nya-boo-boo" me all you want. It only makes your BS more apparent.
0 Replies
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/19/2024 at 04:55:52