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Argument for a deterministic Universe

 
 
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2025 04:30 pm
Hi everyone. This is my first time posting on this forum. I have what is hopefully an interesting 'thought experiment' in support of my belief that we reside in a completely deterministic Universe (the ultimate law of causality), as follows...

First, I want to establish a baseline... Imagine a Universe which is completely devoid of life, in any form. Isn't it true that in said Universe, that all events that occur are 100% caused by prior events? Even if we don't know 'how' the events are caused, the events are still caused? With no conscious agent present with the potential to affect the outcome of the event (due to the Universe being devoid of life), there surely is no alternative path that events can take, except for the path they are compelled to take by the unrelenting forces of nature?... that nothing else can happen at any time point, apart from what actually does happen at that time point?... that everything that happens, in some sense, "was always going to happen"... i.e. a deterministic Universe

So my logic dictates that if I can dispel the notions of 'free will' and 'randomness' as illusory, I believe that is enough to 'prove' that a deterministic Universe is our reality?,,.
Here goes...

1. Maybe someone has claimed this before, though I've never heard it said, but my belief is that we have free will in 3 dimensions, but not in 4 dimensions. Free will in 3 dimensions is just the conventional understanding or 'feeling' we have with regard to free will. We certainly feel free - I can move around or make decisions in any of the 3 spatial dimensions i.e. I can plan a course of action, execute it and see that my action was carried out. That certainly feels and 'is' free in some sense, but it's only free in 3 dimensions. To incorporate the 4th dimension of time, we need to imagine going back in time to any time point where we made a decision (any decision, big or small) i.e. imagine rolling the Universe back in time (like rewinding a video with every scene playing out backwards) to any point just prior to making the decision, so that you are completely revisiting that moment as it was then, in every single aspect - the position and velocity of every subatomic particle in the Universe is identical to the way it was originally and you are identical to who you were then etc... Surely it's true that the option taken in the choice/decision on revisiting the decision, will be identical to the option taken at the first time of choosing? This is precisely because the 'reasons' for your choosing the option the first time around are identical to your 'reasons' at the second choosing (because everything in the Universe is identical in every aspect - your past, your way of thinking, your mood, your blood chemistry, the firing of your brain synapses - every single possible event prior to the choosing moment is identical). Because the option chosen the second time around will be identical to the original option opted for, you are not free in 4 dimensions. In effect, you are free to do whatever you want at any time point, safe in the knowledge that no matter what you chose the first time around, you would repeat the same option on the revisit, and would repeat the same option, regardless of how many times you revisit that very same decision point. This implies that all of our decisions are not free in 4 dimensions, which is the greater truth when compared with 3-dimensional free will. All our choices are just part of the causal chain of prior events and hence are subject to the laws of causality, like everything else.

2. To dispel 'randomness' as completely causal also, imagine going back in time to a coin toss or to a random event like a decaying atom of Uranium. Again, imagine rolling the Universe back in time just prior to the event in question. Will the outcome be the same upon revisiting the event in question? The important thing here is not to confuse subsequent repetitions of the experiment as proof that randomness exists e.g. in the coin toss event, of course multiple tosses in 3 dimensions (one after the other) will lead to different outcomes, due to slight differences in the factors at every toss being carried out. But that is not what I'm describing when imagining rolling the Universe back in time to the original toss. I am talking about going back to the very same original toss and repeating 'that' toss only. So in effect, the infinite factors that influence the outcome are identical in every aspect e.g. the position of the coin on the index finger initially, the atmospheric conditions (humidity, temperature etc..), the force being applied by the brain down the nerves and muscles in the arm to carry out the toss etc.. All of these are identical. Surely those factors being identical in every aspect implies the outcome will be identical (in 4 dimensions), no matter how many times you return to the same 'original' toss? This completely removes randomness as a feature in a 4-dimensional Universe and hence those events that we call 'random' are subject to the laws of causality, like everything else.

I believe that dispelling those two pillars of confusion (free will and randomness) leads to the inexorable conclusion that all events in the 4-dimensional Universe are caused, regardless of 'how' they are caused. Eminent scientists often seek refuge in quantum mechanics as the savior of free will and randomness, but their pursuit is concerned with 'how' things happen. This is because in their world, the emphasis is on finding the best model for making predictions. My point is that 'how' things happen is irrelevant. If we are confident that every single event that happens (right down to the Planck length) is caused, then the conclusion has to be that we live in a deterministic Universe, where the only events that can happen are the very same ones that do. Nothing else is possible except what actually does happen. It is an inescapable movie being played out and we are all a part of it. Yes, you are free to do anything you want to do at any time point, but safe in the knowledge that no matter what you choose, you were always going to make that choice at that time point... i.e. a deterministic Universe...
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steve reid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2025 01:42 pm
Hi Trampoline Star and welcome to a2k

A fascinating and thought provoking read which pretty much aligns with my thoughts on free will and randomness
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jan, 2025 08:30 pm
Yes and no.



Quizás, Quizás, Quizás
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2025 12:46 am
@steve reid,
The Son of Man, the God chosen by Abraham, is a fourth dimensional being as seen when he revealed his form to Moses, who he hid in the cleft of a rock and covered him with his hand as he passed by, allowing Moses to see his back but not his face, as no human being can see his face and live.

Every living thing within this apparent boundless cosmos, are merely information gatherers for the eternal energy which manifests itself as this living universe and is all that exists and is, ’The Great Thought’ the collective consciousness of all that exists.

At any given point in time, you are no more than inches away from a spider, fly, ant, or any other of the many information gatherers of the eternal, who is all that exists. Jeremiah 23: 23-24; “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see him. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and on earth?

He has eyes and ears throughout the entire universe. He is the First and Last, the Beginning and End, the Alpha and Omega, the Father and Son. Everything that you have ever done according to your own free will, is recorded in the mind that is the Omega, who is one with the Alpha who knows everything that you will ever do according to your own free will.

Tell me again what you believe to be a deterministic Universe? To be continued.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2025 01:03 am
@The Anointed,
Continued from previous post.
If you throw a stone, it can be determined exactly where that stone will land and the exact spot where its momentum will cease. But to determine that, one would have to know the size, shape and weight of the stone, the air temperature, wind speed and direction, the amount of thrust used to propel the stone, the angle, direction, etc, etc, etc, and so, so much more information, plus the time needed to make your calculations.

But if a crowded room with four doors were to burst into flames, how would one determine which individual among that crowd would ‘CHOOSE’ which particular door to exit that room?

I put this scenario to an A.I. and its response is as follows, ...........

You've highlighted a key distinction between deterministic and non-deterministic systems. In a deterministic system, like the stone being thrown, all variables can theoretically be measured and calculated to predict the outcome with certainty. However, in a scenario involving human behavior, such as a crowded room with four doors on fire, the situation becomes far more complex.

Human behavior is influenced by a multitude of factors, including individual experiences, emotions, instincts, and even random chance. In such a scenario, predicting which door each person will choose involves understanding not just the physical environment, but also the psychological and social dynamics at play. This introduces an element of unpredictability that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to determine the exact outcome.

This distinction underscores the complexity of human decision-making and the limitations of deterministic models when applied to real-world situations involving conscious beings. Your example beautifully illustrates the interplay between determinism and free will, and the challenges of predicting human behavior.



steve reid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2025 11:12 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:
Tell me again what you believe to be a deterministic Universe?

Cause precedes effect, show me where this is not so ?. If 'retrocausality' in quantum mechanics is proven then I'll be open to changing my mind
You have escalated the complexity exponentially with your second scenario but the laws of physics still apply. The basic building blocks of stone or the brain are atoms, and all atoms are subject to the laws of physics. In any scenario, if all the variables are known then the result can be determined

The Anointed wrote:
I put this scenario to an A.I. and its response is as follows, ...........

I don't put much store in AI, AI doesn't know anything and cannot reason. AI can beat the best grand master in the world at chess but AI doesn't know it's playing chess, it's just number crunching at phenomenal speed and accuracy

Emotions and instinct are not some non matter/energy something existing off world in the ether, I think of emotions and instinct as patterns laid down in the brain, perhaps a sequence of synapses firing, who knows. These emotions, instincts or patterns are an interplay between matter and energy and as such are subject to the laws of physics. If every variable about them could be known (which obviously they can't) then the result could be determined

As to 'random chance', as I've already stated before I don't believe anything is random, random exists as an idea in the mind. Take my local beach when the tide is out, there must be trillions of grains of sand in my vicinity. At any point in time the grains of sand are where they are because of the laws of physics. Not one grain transcends the laws of physics to end up somewhere it oughtn't to

Trampoline Star wrote:
.... a random event like a decaying atom of Uranium.

An Atoms decay is spontaneous not random, it appears random from our pov because we can't predict it
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2025 04:15 pm
@steve reid,
“YOU THINK” I’ll just repeat that, “YOU THINK” of emotions and instinct as patterns laid down in the brain, ‘PERHAPS’ a sequence of synapses firing, who knows. (Correct, “WHO KNOWS?)

And now, what ‘YOU THINK’ becomes a reality, as seen in what follows.

These emotions, instincts or patterns “ARE” an interplay between matter and energy and as such "ARE" subject to the laws of physics. (Who told you that?)

If every variable about them could be known (which obviously they can't) then the result could be determined. (But obviously it can’t be determined, as every variable about them cannot be known and so, they cannot be determined.)
0 Replies
 
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2025 08:13 pm
To not condemn is to condone the dissolute nature of randomness.

Some say pi is random but ... heads say all its digits are known to be 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 9.

The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2025 12:00 am
@ekename,
Because the digits PI comprises are said to be precisely determined and fixed, it is believed by many that we can’t call pi random.

But tell me ekename, did you write that post according to your own free will, or do you believe that it was determined that you would do so at the moment of the B.B.?
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2025 02:50 pm
Turtles All the Way Up

The idea that living beings have no free will might sound scientific today, but it remains as dogmatic as it has always been.

Jessica Riskin wrote:
After spending most of the twentieth century watching birds, the Harvard ornithologist and evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr concluded that they were rote little machines. He wrote in 1988 that birds and other animals are no more purposeful than computers: they behave as they’re programmed to. If you’ve ever seen a bird, you might find that surprising: they certainly look purposeful as they seek out unsuspecting rodents to swoop down upon, ferry worms to their irksome offspring, and produce miniature versions of the Beijing Olympic stadium.

Even more remarkable than Mayr’s claim itself is the fact that it purports to represent a scientific view of things. For one thing, programmed by whom? Mayr’s answer was that birds and other creatures were programmed by natural selection via genetics: natural selection favors genetic “behavior program[s]” that maximize fitness, for instance by ensuring an “instantaneous correct reaction to a potential food source, to a potential enemy, or to a potential mate.” Mayr didn’t justify his belief in behavior programs other than by claiming that this was the only legitimate possibility: the alternatives were “supernaturalistic.” He wasn’t even going to “waste time showing how wrong” they were. Mayr’s genetic behavior program, in other words, was axiomatic; we might call it a dogma.

Robert Sapolsky, a neuroscientiest and primatologist at Stanford, carries the argument further in his new book, Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will. It’s not just other animals that are deterministic machines, he says, but humans. Embracing a scientific worldview, for Sapolsky, means accepting that there’s no free will. Every development, including every action of living beings, follows inexorably from the previous state of things: “We are nothing more or less than the cumulative biological and environmental luck, over which we had no control, that has brought us to any moment.” People cling to their cherished idea of free will with “ferocious tenacity” (presumably they can’t help themselves), but he hopes to shake their faith.

Sapolsky is ecumenical about the causes determining human behavior. Like Mayr, he considers evolution the underlying process—“humans were sculpted by evolution over millions of years”—but he emphasizes that long-term evolutionary processes are inseparable from short-term causes, including neurons, genes, epigenetics, the womb, the environment, ecology, hormones, smells, history, culture, “the sort of people you come from,” and “how you were mothered within minutes of birth.” No doubt there could be plenty more—economics, for instance, or the obstetrical resident who handed you to your mother—but anyhow the whole smorgasbord comes together to fix human behavior absolutely, leaving “not a single crack of daylight” for agency to sneak through. Not only are we “not captains of our ships,” he writes, “our ships never had captains. ****. That really blows.” (This gives a taste of Sapolsky’s late-night-dorm-room literary style.)

How does he know? Because of science. Sapolsky tells us that “the science of human behavior shows” it to be deterministic. But none of the scientific evidence he offers turns out to demonstrate this. He describes psychological studies revealing changes in people’s electroencephalograms (EEGs) taking place milliseconds before they were aware of making a decision, but he dismisses these—reasonably enough—as “irrelevant.” He presents other studies demonstrating that people can be subconsciously manipulated; that hormones, cultural beliefs, and moral values influence behavior; and that maturation, aging, and experience induce alterations in people’s brains and bodies with corresponding behavioral changes. After each discussion he asks, “Does this disprove free will?” and responds—again reasonably—with “nah,” “nope,” “certainly not,” and “obviously not.” Readers might wonder, equally reasonably, why they’ve slogged through all this irrelevant nonevidence.

It’s because the many factors influencing behavior, Sapolsky thinks, place the burden of proof on defenders of human agency. It’s they who need to show that neurons are “completely uninfluenced” by any external factors and that “some behavior just happened out of thin air.” But why must human behavior be either deterministic or impervious to any influence? Sapolsky doesn’t explain; he takes as given that to show any influence at all is to show a determining influence. Similarly, he writes that we have “no control” over our biology, culture, or environment. Sure, we don’t control these things, but there’s an important difference between not controlling something and having no effect on it, or at least so anyone with teenagers is inclined to hope. Biology isn’t insulated from behavior any more than behavior is from biology. As Sapolsky himself points out, virtually everything a person does has an effect on their physiology. And a wealth of empirical evidence from Aristotle to Oprah suggests that people can indeed have cultural influence.

Sapolsky’s confidence is also unshaken by the various scientific fields that study unpredictability, irreducibility, or indeterminacy in physical systems. Chaos theory studies unpredictable systems, like the weather, but unpredictable doesn’t necessarily mean indeterminate; complex systems theory studies emergent phenomena that can’t be reduced to their component parts, like traffic or slime molds, but Sapolsky says these have no “centralized authority” capable of having a will

; and quantum indeterminacy doesn’t “bubble up” to influence behavior. Since unpredictability isn’t the same as indeterminacy, he’s also unfazed by scientists’ lack of success in predicting human behavior, and even cheerfully affirms that they’ll never be successful at it. That’s no reason to doubt the “deterministic gears grinding underneath.”

In an apocryphal tale, an “old woman” accosted William James to offer the pragmatist her unpragmatic opinion that the world rested on a stack of turtles going “all the way down.” Usually she has served—as hypothetical old women will—to personify stubborn unreason. In James’s own version, it was actually a pile of rocks, not turtles, and he never claimed to have met the woman himself: she was already a cliché by the time he invoked her in 1882, a staple of American popular writing on science and belief. She had appeared as early as the 1830s in various literary reviews as a foil for writers pressing a modern, Newtonian worldview.

The rocks became turtles after the English anthropologist Edward Burnett Tylor published a comparison of “World-Tortoise” cosmologies, including native North American and Indian versions, in his books Researches into the Early History of Mankind (1865) and Primitive Culture (1871), describing the course of cultural progress from savagery to civilization. Following this cameo, the World-Tortoise came to epitomize backward belief systems, and some writers began combining it with the older stack-of-rocks idea to get an infinite regress of turtles.

For instance, in 1905 a Christian Scientist in Washington, D.C., offered examples of heathen ignorance including the view of a fabricated “Richmond negro preacher” that the world stood on “turtles all the way down.”

In a disarming twist, Sapolsky takes the old woman’s side. He might be the world’s first actual believer in stacked turtles. Like the other writers in this tradition, he casts worldviews other than his own as preposterous—only now it’s those who don’t subscribe to stacked-turtle-ism who are irrational. “It actually is much more ridiculous and nonsensical,” he writes, “to believe that somewhere down there, there’s a turtle floating in the air.” He characterizes ideas about human agency as “magical,” “absurd,” “mystical gibberish,” “nonsense,” and full of “fairy dust.”

Sapolsky’s turtles are of course metaphorical; they stand for deterministic causes, and by “a turtle floating in the air” he means a magical event. We must accept a strictly causal chain extending back to the beginning of time or acknowledge that we believe in miracles. But why are these our only choices? And are they really so different? Wouldn’t a chain of deterministic causes imply a miracle of some sort at the beginning—the old infinite regress problem rearing its domed shell again?

This, in fact, was what determinism originally implied: an omnipotent, divine creator behind the world-machine. Although it has a scientific sound today, the idea of living beings as deterministic machines didn’t originate with natural selection; it came into evolutionary biology by way of a theological tradition of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, according to which the programmer was an omniscient deity. The determinism of today’s devoted sect of scientists, philosophers, and popular science writers—however incongruous it might seem—grew out of a creed whose adherents believed in a supernatural God with a monopoly on causal power.

The originator of modern scientific determinism was the French mathematician, astronomer, physicist, and statesman Pierre-Simon Laplace, who in 1814 wrote triumphantly that science had at last eradicated the belief in miracles from the minds of “enlightened men.” Each state of the universe, he announced, was fixed by the previous one and determined the subsequent one.

A long tradition of denying miracles was already in place by then, but it wasn’t a scientific tradition, at least in the first instance; the original miracle deniers were Protestants. “Magicians and enchanters have always been famous for miracles, and miracles of an astonishing description have given support to idolatry,” warned John Calvin. Rejecting floating turtles doesn’t necessarily make you a scientific rationalist; in some contexts, it might mean you’re a Calvinist. So might denying the existence of free will and claiming that every human fate is predestined. In fact, here’s a quiz: Which of the following passages are by Robert Sapolsky and which by John Calvin?

1. “The power of free will is not to be considered in any of those desires which proceed more from instinct than mental deliberation.”

2. “From this it is erroneously inferred…that there is some power of free will.”

3. “You are privileged…to cloak yourself with myths of freely willed choices.”

4. “Whatever happens in the universe was destined to happen.”

(Answers at end of article)

Laplace’s starting point was Isaac Newton, who in the 1713 second edition of his Principia proclaimed “that the true God is a Living, Intelligent and Powerful Being…. He is Eternal and Infinite, Omnipotent and Omniscient.” God controlled everything in Newton’s universe. All its parts were God’s “Creatures subordinate to him, and subservient to his Will.” In the words of Newton’s friend and translator, the Anglican philosopher Samuel Clarke, the world operated “by the continual uninterrupted exercise of [God’s] power and government,” and there were “no powers of nature at all that can do anything of themselves.” Newton’s world-machinery functioned only through God’s immediate presence in each part and would otherwise grind to a halt.

Nicknamed the “French Newton” by the popular press, Laplace showed Newtonian tendencies not only in his system of celestial mechanics but also in some of the theological ideas he attached to it. In his cosmology, as in Newton’s, nothing enjoyed its own power to act. Laplace extended his strict determinism even to minor and insignificant events, which he said resulted from the law-governed order of things “as necessarily as the revolutions of the sun,” and to apparent acts of will and free choice, which were nothing but “illusion[s] of the mind.”

Laplace imagined an infinite intelligence that could comprehend all the interacting forces in the universe. For such a being nothing would be uncertain, “and the future, as the past, would be present to its eyes.” The human mind could gain but a “feeble idea” of such an intelligence. The closest we could come, Laplace thought, was through astronomy and mathematics, which would lead the mind “back continually to the vast intelligence…from which it will always remain infinitely removed.”

This suggestion of an omniscient being might seem surprising coming from Laplace, who is often invoked as an early champion of atheism. But while he left behind the Catholic orthodoxy in which he grew up, he consistently expressed belief in a supreme power behind natural processes, referring to a divine intelligence in his published writings and to God in private letters. According to an often told story, Napoleon asked Laplace why he made no mention of God in his work on celestial mechanics, and Laplace replied that he had “no need of that hypothesis.” The anecdote, a favorite of popular science writers, seems to have originated with Napoleon’s doctor François Carlo Antommarchi. But the astronomer William Herschel, who witnessed the exchange, said Laplace merely meant that “a chain of natural causes” could account for the “wonderful system” of the heavens. God’s existence wasn’t in question.

This is consistent with what Laplace himself wrote: the supreme intelligence might have worked entirely through material causes, with no need for direct supernatural action of the sort Newton invoked. If Laplace said he had no need of a particular theological hypothesis, it was likely Newton’s idea of constant divine intervention in nature that he rejected, not God’s presence behind the world-machine. In fact, Laplace boasted about his own findings regarding the stability of the solar system that if Newton could have known of them, they would have confirmed his belief in a providential Creator.

In short, the deterministic mechanism of the world, in Laplace’s science, was the manifestation of an omnipotent force: a total consolidation of power. It left no room for contingency, uncertainty, or even minor assertions of choice or will, which were all figments of human ignorance, illusion, and folly. Early in his book, Sapolsky says he won’t be considering “theologically based Judeo-Christian views” about free will and determinism, yet his own view has deep roots in a form of Judeo-Christian absolutism.

Sapolsky tells the story of Phineas Gage, who suffered a metal rod through the brain while working on a construction site in Vermont in 1848 and was never quite the same afterward. He offers Gage as evidence that people’s personalities depend on their “material brains,” which he thinks poses a challenge to anyone who wants to defend the idea of free will. But why should the fact that humans and their brains are made of material parts mean there’s no such thing as human agency? There’s a good answer, but it’s historical rather than scientific: because determinism retains crucial elements of the theology from which it arose, according to which the material world was a passive artifact lacking any agency of its own.

Like scientific determinism more generally, the idea of living beings as rote machines also originated in an older theological tradition: the argument from design. Authors of arguments from design said they could prove the existence of God by showing that natural things, especially living ones, were complex machines and must therefore have a designer. The tradition originated in the mid-seventeenth century, but William Paley, an Anglican philosopher and Christian apologist, gave the idea its most familiar expression in his book Natural Theology (1802), a huge best seller. Paley said living things revealed the existence of God the way a watch reveals the existence of a watchmaker. “In crossing a heath,” he wrote, “suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there.” He might reply that it could have been there forever. “But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground.” Aha! He could hardly give the same answer; someone must have made the watch and left it there.

People found this argument irresistibly persuasive. But is a living thing really like a watch? They’re both complex systems of interacting parts. But what if the watch had yelped and scuttled away, as many living things will do when you trip over them? Paley’s argument relied on a peculiar notion of living things as passive, inert. It might seem strange that Mayr, a twentieth-century biologist, shared this counterintuitive idea of living beings with Paley, an eighteenth-century theologian. But stranger yet, modern biology largely absorbed Paley’s model of organisms.

It wasn’t so much Charles Darwin himself who absorbed it, although he was deeply marked by Paley’s work, which he studied at Cambridge. “In order to pass the B.A. examination,” he later recalled, “it was…necessary to get up Paley’s Evidences of Christianity…. I am convinced that I could have written out the whole of the Evidences with perfect correctness.” One indication of the impression Paley made was Darwin’s inner struggle regarding the workings of the eye. Comparing eyes to lens instruments was a staple of arguments from design. You can’t have a lens instrument without an instrument maker, went the reasoning—a microscope doesn’t put itself together from parts—and likewise, you can’t have an eye without a divine optician. Paley wrote that eyes were “so exquisite in their contrivance” that on their own they constituted proof that could “never be got rid of.” Darwin certainly had trouble getting rid of it. “The eye to this day gives me a cold shudder,” he confessed to his friend and ally, the Harvard botanist Asa Gray.

Yet Darwin did manage to distinguish eyes from artificial optical devices. He based his evolutionary explanation of the eye on an active capacity specific to living things: the sensitivity of the optic nerve to light. The eye, he said, began as a sensitive optic nerve beneath a layer of transparent tissue, then formed gradually over “millions on millions of years” through natural selection. Still, Darwin allowed a bit of Paley to seep in: he described natural selection as

a power always intently watching each slight accidental alteration in the transparent layers; and carefully selecting each alteration which…may in any way, or in any degree, tend to produce a distincter image.

Such passages led both Gray and another friend, the geologist Charles Lyell, to feel that Darwin was “deifying” natural selection.

Despite such seemingly deistic moments in his writings, Darwin took a great interest in the capacity of animals to be their own creators, transforming themselves, one another, and their environment, and so influencing the course of evolution. An example is his idea of “use and disuse”: animals strengthen and enhance their body parts by using them, or weaken them by declining to use them, then pass these changes on to their offspring. Another example is his theory of sexual selection, in which animals shape their descendants by choosing mates according to their various standards of beauty. Darwin also became less religious over the course of his life. In his autobiography, intended only for family and close friends, he called himself an “Agnostic” and wrote that his “disbelief” in the Christian faith and a personal God had come upon him gradually “but was at last complete.”

After Darwin’s death, however, his most influential followers insisted on the passivity of organisms at the hands of natural selection, and ultimately at the hands of a divine presence behind evolution. In effect, these neo-Darwinian evolutionary theorists imported the absolute power of God into the determining force of natural selection. The principal author of this revised Darwinism was August Weismann, a doctor and zoology professor at the University of Freiburg. Weismann rejected Darwin’s theory of use and disuse, insisting that organisms could never pass on to their offspring any of the changes they underwent in their lifetimes. He also assured his readers that his science assumed a “Universal Cause” or “Final Cause” operating “behind” the mechanism of the universe and was therefore “absolutely opposed” to materialism. All “directive power” lay with this remote divine presence and none with the evolving beings themselves.

This interpretation rendered living beings not just powerless to influence the course of evolution but passive even at the level of behavior. One of Weismann’s followers was the ornithologist Erwin Stresemann, who was also Mayr’s mentor at the University of Berlin during the 1920s. In Stresemann’s view, “An animal does not act for itself, but under a higher commission: animal non agit, sed agitur [an animal does not act, but is acted upon].” Mayr learned Weismannism at his mentor’s knee. The idea that animals were passive machines, having come to him in the doctoral equivalent of his mother’s milk, remained so powerful that almost a century of experience in ornithology—including extensive research on birds learning from experience, exhibiting spatial and temporal intelligence, constructing and using tools, communicating through song, and understanding abstract concepts such as “same” and “different”—did nothing to shake it. Several decades on, if Sapolsky’s latest book is any indication, the dogma seems stronger than ever.

Sapolsky has a humanitarian purpose: he wants us not to blame anyone for anything they’ve done, since they had no choice. Accordingly he advocates reforming the criminal justice system to eliminate retributive punishment. A handful of philosophers and neuroscientists have made the same argument, and Sapolsky cites them, but he doesn’t mention the extensive literature that rejects retributive theories without treating humans as deterministic. In the eighteenth century, for instance, the Italian criminologist Cesare Beccaria wrote that the purpose of punishment should never be “to torment a sensible being,” which was useless and inconsistent with justice, but should solely be to prevent further crimes in whatever way would cause the least distress to the criminal. Or, as the twentieth-century English legal philosopher H.L.A. Hart put it, no moral alchemy can transmute the imposition of suffering into good. You don’t need to deny that criminals have free will to oppose retribution as a goal of criminal justice.

In fact, you might think that treating criminals humanely means acknowledging that they retain a fundamental human agency. The English philosopher P.F. Strawson wrote that if we give up a sense of agency in other people, we lose any basis for feelings of love, gratitude, affection, respect, or esteem. Others have placed the recognition of personhood and agency at the crux of humanitarian thinking. According to the economist and philosopher Amartya Sen, fostering human agency should be the core purpose of economic development. He writes that it would be “a very restricted view of…personhood” to see people simply “as entities that experience and have well-being.” Instead we must see people “as responsible persons: not only are we well or ill, but also we act or refuse to act, and can choose to act one way rather than another.”

Sapolsky’s solution to the problem of what to do with those convicted of crimes is radically at odds with this definition of humanitarian policy. He recommends that society regard them as the passive objects of their fate and commit them to a medical-style “quarantine.” He gives few details, but does mention a familiar array of practices, from physically confining people to requiring them to register with the local police and wear tracking bracelets. It’s hard to see how this would be better than, or even very different from, being punished in the existing system.

Although Sapolsky doesn’t consider the arguments that medical models of criminal justice objectify and dehumanize people, he does acknowledge a problem many have raised: quarantines, unlike most prison sentences, are of indefinite duration. Who gets to decide when they end? He seems unconcerned about the totalitarian risks of a system of indefinite imprisonment, writing that the constraining measures would always be the minimum necessary for public safety. And anyway, don’t worry, once people realize there’s no free will, they won’t “be recoiling from this constrained person as a loathsome, blameworthy criminal anymore,” so the constraints will be imposed with a smile.

Sapolsky, like others who favor criminal justice reform, admires Norway’s prison system, in which prisoners live in residences that resemble college dorms and enjoy a great deal of freedom to move around, pursue various kinds of projects, and live their lives as normally as possible. It’s a commendable system, but a bad example for Sapolsky, since it’s founded on a principle of enhancing prisoners’ agency. Are Høidal, the founding warden of Halden, Norway’s model maximum-security prison, says the goal is to promote prisoners’ “freedom of choice” and foster people’s “own efforts to change their criminal behavioral patterns.”

Finally, unsurprisingly, Sapolsky’s reductive model of human beings carries the same implications as others of its kind. It relegates people to categories by class, biology, and cultural stereotype: the college graduate versus the garbage collector, those with one “flavor” of genes versus those with another, the person from “individualist” America versus the person from a “collectivist” East Asian culture that emphasizes “conformity.” Sapolsky is careful to stress that no single factor—genetic, environmental, cultural, familial—determines these categories, but he’s equally emphatic that the sum of factors fixes them utterly: the garbage collector can’t help but be a garbage collector, nor the conformist East Asian person a conformist. Sapolsky speaks this “incredibly important point” ex cathedra in the name of science, even though, “yeah, no single result or scientific discipline” demonstrates it: “Put all the scientific results together, from all the relevant scientific disciplines, and there’s no room for free will.” Now, is that scientific? To claim that lots of failures to prove something add up to a definitive proof?

Science can’t prove there’s no free will because the question of free will is not a scientific question but a philosophical one. To misrepresent it as a scientific question is a prime example of scientism—extending the claims of science beyond its bounds. Here’s another from Sapolsky’s final chapter: “What the science in this book ultimately teaches is that there is no meaning.” This might sound like the opposite of saying that science shows there’s a divine intelligence behind the world-machine, but it’s the direct descendant of that earlier claim, and comes to the same evacuation of meaning and agency from the mortal world. This isn’t a scientific proposition. It remains what it has been from the beginning: a theology.

The first giant tortoise that Darwin saw when he traveled to the Galapagos Islands with the HMS Beagle in autumn 1835 was eating a piece of cactus; it stared at him and “stalked away,” while a second one hissed and drew in its head. Fascinated by the enormous, ancient creatures, he followed them and studied their habits. “The tortoise is very fond of water,” he reported, “drinking large quantities, and wallowing in the mud.” Darwin was especially impressed by the tortoises’ ability to travel great distances from the lower parts of the island up to the fresh water sources. They traveled “by night and day,” and could journey eight miles in just two or three days. They created “broad and well-beaten paths,” which were what had led the first Spanish colonists to the watering holes. Upon arriving at the springs, he beheld a “curious spectacle”: “Many of these huge creatures, one set eagerly travelling onwards with outstretched necks, and another set returning, after having drunk their fill.”

In this as in Darwin’s other observations, he describes living beings behaving with purpose, agency, and meaning; indeed, reclaiming those capacities from a divine creator. It’s turtles all the way up.

Answers: Calvin, Calvin, Sapolsky, Sapolsky.

nyrb
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2025 07:55 pm
@The Anointed,
Quote:
But tell me ekename, did you write that post according to your own free will, or do you believe that it was determined that you would do so at the moment of the B.B.?


Yea, verily, I say unto thee that the eternal cosmic consciousness (uno the one that evolved from the first quantum of energy and gets info from the ants) gave mankind free will.

Then the snake suckered clone woman into biting the apple and we all had to surely die. Then the rains came.

Ipso facto, from your ipse dixit, god gave it to me, so I only have what god determined.

I do declare.

0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  0  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2025 08:41 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
After spending most of the twentieth century watching birds, the Harvard ornithologist and evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr concluded that they were rote little machines. He wrote in 1988 that birds and other animals are no more purposeful than computers: they behave as they’re programmed to. ...... Even more remarkable than Mayr’s claim itself is the fact that it purports to represent a scientific view of things. For one thing, programmed by whom?



By the living mind that is all that exists and manifests itself as this universe in which we were created by that mind and for that mind, or as the Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like ‘A GREAT THOUGHT’ than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

This would appear to compliment Paul’s statement in Romans 1: 18-23; that the eternal, who has neither beginning or end, had made himself manifest as this visible cosmos, and all that can be known about the eternal has been made plain to us in the creation itself, which is the eternal invisible MIND, ‘The GREAT THOUGHT’ made visible as it has evolved today.

And that which we call God, through whom all things were created, by whom all things were created and for whom all things were created, the God, who is one, the great singularity in who all things exist, is the same today as it was yesterday and will be into all eternity. It is the eternal constant, in that it has been constantly evolving, and will continue to evolve from everlasting to everlasting. The only mind that can cease to evolve, is the mind that has ceased to exist.

It is the eternal energy that cannot be created and can never be destroyed. Matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observe the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

Energy can be and is converted to that which we perceive as matter. In fact, this apparent material universe at the time of the Big Bang, was, according to the most popular theory of the creation of this universe, pure electromagnetic energy, which, In my Opinion, was spewed out of a WHITE HOLE, in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, or, according to scientific measurements (180 million trillion, trillion degrees Fahrenheit), which electromagnetic energy has been converted to that which we perceive as matter, only to be reconverted to its original form as electromagnetic energy during the phase of the Big Crunch, taking with it all the information gathered in each cycle of universal activity, when all will be ripped apart atom by atom, subatomic particle by subatomic particle, and fall as fire into the Great Abyss, or Black Hole that is connected to a White Hole at the end of an Einstein Rosen bridge that connects the two, where the universe is reconverted to the singularity of its origin.

A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite. Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes. General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe.

collective consciousness of all that it is.
Every living thing within this apparent boundless cosmos, are merely information gatherers for the eternal energy which manifests itself as this living universe and is all that exists and is, ’The Great Thought’ the collective consciousness of all that exists. At any given point in time, you are no more than inches away from a spider, fly, ant, or any other of the many information gatherers of the eternal, who is all that exists.

Jeremiah 23: 23-24; “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see him. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and on earth? He has eyes and ears throughout the entire universe


0 Replies
 
knaivete
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2025 11:09 pm
@Trampoline Star,
It was inevitable that you'd post your doctrine the house, and never return.

Your thought experiment in support of your belief is akin to a koan in buddhism, well deserving of one hand clapping.

Opinions about decisions and probability that would have happened anyway when you go back through time might, to some. be considered speculative.

Quote:
I believe that dispelling those two pillars of confusion (free will and randomness) leads to the inexorable conclusion that all events in the 4-dimensional Universe are caused, regardless of 'how' they are caused.


Given that the two pillars were not disproved, is the corollary that determinism is amiss and a myth true or is that too plebeian?



The Anointed
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2025 04:42 am
@knaivete,
Going back to my post where I spoke of “The Great Thought” ‘The Singularity of origin, as being both the creator and governor of the realm of Matter. According to the Christian concept, God is the ‘LOGOS’ or the ‘WORD’ Through whom all things were created, by whom all things were created and for who all things were created.

The Buddhist creator God is “BRAHMAN” and the root to the word Brahman, originally meant "SPEECH", much the same as the “LOGOS” is said to mean ‘WORD'. Shabda OR SHABDA STANDS FOR ‘WORD’ MANIFESTED BY SOUND [VERBAL]
Bhartrhari speaks about the creative power of shabda, the manifold universe is a creation of Shabda Brahman.
The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc (R.V.X.114.8), and has hymns in praise of ‘SPEECH AS THE CREATOR.’

Just as our words are the audible expression of the spirit=mind that is we, the visible universe is the word=expression of the invisible ‘Great Thought.’ The Greek word “LOGOS” which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the eternal mind which are to be expressed.

The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops. A Universal and eternal ‘Son of God’ who, although each SON occupies its own individual position in Space-Time, is able to visit all the other universal Sons of the eternal and boundless cosmos. The uncountable universal bodies that have been created throughout eternity.

In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vac.' Vac means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vac has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as ‘A THOUGHT,’ and not as the spoken word or speech. The LOGOS is in fact, the invisible living COSMIC mind, (THE GREAT THOUGHT) in which is gathered all of the information of every life form that it becomes, and should be seen as, ‘The essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return at the close of each period of universal activity, or each generation of the universe.'
laughoutlood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Feb, 2025 04:19 am
Fish and loaves for free, you know how I feel
Miracles that be, you know how I feel
Universe is me. you know how I feel

It's the old porn
It's so well worn
It's the sheep shorn, for me

And god's feeling me

The Anointed
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Feb, 2025 05:56 pm
@laughoutlood,
And he who laughs last, laughs loudest.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Feb, 2025 05:11 pm
@The Anointed,
Quote:
In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vac.' Vac means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vac has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as ‘A THOUGHT,’ and not as the spoken word or speech. The LOGOS is in fact, the invisible living COSMIC mind, (THE GREAT THOUGHT) in which is gathered all of the information of every life form that it becomes, and should be seen as, ‘The essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return at the close of each period of universal activity, or each generation of the universe.'


There are many galactic clusters [universes] out there within the eternal and boundless cosmos, each cluster=universe in its own position in Space-time, consisting of billions of Galaxies falling inward toward a Great Abyss, Black Hole, or Bottomless Pit, (The Great Gatherer) where it is torn to pieces Molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created and accelerated along the dark worm hole to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like Electromagnetic energy is spewed out in the trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the eternal and boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy a new universe is created, or rather, the old universe is resurrected, to continue on in its eternal process of evolution.

A Black Hole is a massive system so centrally condensed that the force of gravity prevents everything within it, even light from escaping. But how many Black Holes are out there in the boundlessness of the eternal cosmos? How much dark matter is hidden within those Black Holes? Nobody knows, science is still coming to grips with Black Holes, which are believed to be at the centre of all Spiral and elliptical galaxies, and Black Holes devour everything of lesser mass that comes in contact with them, even smaller Black HOLES.

Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by a super Black hole, which has a mass of some three to four million suns, and if you think that’s a big black hole, consider this; “In December of 2019, astronomers announced the discovery of one of the biggest black holes ever measured in the nearby universe.

That black hole is at the centre of an elliptical galaxy in galaxy cluster Abel 85, and has been calculated to be 40 billion times the mass of our sun, which is equivalent to two-thirds the mass of the 100-billion stars in the Milky Way and is roughly the size of our entire solar system.”

Our Milky Way and the nearby Andromeda Galaxy, which are two spiral galaxies are on a collision course, and when these two spiral galaxies collide, they can merge and form an elliptical galaxy, which elliptical galaxies can collide and merge again to form an even larger elliptical galaxy. The central Black holes of those elliptical galaxies also merge and combine to make one massive Black Hole, and those Massive galaxies, which are called ‘core galaxies’ are believed to be the main attractive force at the centre of galactic clusters, which clusters are being attracted to a super Duper gravitational anomaly within the Shapley Super Cluster, which is the largest concentration of galaxies in our nearby universe that forms a gravitational anomaly “THAT IS PULLING ITSELF TOGETHER INSTEAD OF EXPANDING WITH THE REST OF THE UNIVERSES.”
0 Replies
 
 

 
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