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What a Christian Leader has to say about Pandemic Christians

 
 
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 08:26 am
"They are much too rash and reckless, tempting God and disregarding everything which might counteract death and the plague. They distain the use of medicines; they do not avoid places and persons infected by the plague, but lightheartedly make sport of it and wish to prove how independent they are. They say that it is God’s punishment; if he wants to protect them he can do so without medicines or our carefulness. This is not trusting God but tempting him. God has created medicines and provided us with intelligence to guard and take good care of the body so that we can live in good health."

Luther went on to warn that those who "make no use of intelligence or medicine...become a suicide in God’s eyes." Then he leveled the most serious charge against the "rash and reckless" trying to "prove how independent they are," saying that...

"It is even more shameful for a person to pay no heed to his own body and to fail to protect it against the plague the best he is able, and then to infect and poison others who might have remained alive if he had taken care of his body as he should have. He is thus responsible before God for his neighbor’s death and is a murderer many times over."

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/may-web-only/martin-luther-plague-pandemic-coronavirus-covid-flee-letter.html
 
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 08:34 am
@bobsal u1553115,
This is from 1527.... What medicine are we talking about?

(I think applying a letter written in 1527 to modern life is rather silly).
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 08:51 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Very pertinent and apropos.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 08:55 am
someone wrote:
I think applying a letter written in 1527 to modern life is rather silly.

Someone seems to be suffering from a bad case of presentism. I think not being able to appreciate how voices from the past resonate in the here and now is really shallow.

bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 08:57 am
@hightor,
That troll just gotta troll.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:14 am
@bobsal u1553115,
It is silly in a couple of ways.

1) The "medicine" in 1527 included heavy metal and leaches. Martin Luther had nothing to say about vaccines.

2) Martin Luther is not at all a good guy by modern standards. He supported Slavery, oppressed women and hated Jews. You want to cancel Abraham Lincoln, but listen to Martin Luther... how does this make any sense.

Who cares what Martin Luther said (other than as a disgraced historical figure).
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:24 am
Those who do not study the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them, intelligent people understand that.

Whiny little trolls only care about themselves. Ignore them.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:34 am
Troll on big troll.

All this shows is how wrong you are in two different historical periods with the same health crisis and the same troglodytes resisting the best medical technology of the times.

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite at a time when Jews weren't allowed to own property, travel freely or hold citizenship, were being killed in pogroms all over Europe, including Germany, England, France, Spain, Italy etc. He wasn't a one of a kind, he was one of the vast majority of Europeans. That's no defense, bubby, that's a bit of context.

(It is truly amusing to hear you knocking the heavy metal medicine of the 1400's and not say a word about the horse dewormer, chloroquinine, Boo mud, etc etc of the 2020s. If its not working for you, may I suggest tripling the dosage?)

He was also ant-Turk, Anti-Pope and he hated schnitzel. What's that all prove in the 15th century? That except for the schnitzel, that he was a man of the times.

It amazes me how many antivaxxers (the vastest majority) are anti-Semites.

I bet you know a bunch of Jew jokes, but you're no anti-Semite, right, wink wink, nudge nudge?
jcboy
 
  5  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:37 am
I think Max needs to check out this site Razz

Just for Max
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:44 am
@jcboy,
Max2K! How apropos!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:46 am
@bobsal u1553115,
There weren't pogroms in England during the time of Luther because they'd already been expelled by Edward I, and didn't come back until Oliver Cromwell was in power.

That is why The Merchant of Venice is such an important play. Shylock is human, he behaves as any human would and it treated appallingly. There is a lot of sympathy for the character.

There were no Jewish people in England at the time which meant they were fictionalised like the Big Bad Wolf in Fairy Tales. In Christopher Marlowe's The Jew of Malta, the central character Barabas is thoroughly evil, no redeeming qualities at all.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 09:58 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

"They are much too rash and reckless, tempting God and disregarding everything which might counteract death and the plague. They distain the use of medicines; they do not avoid places and persons infected by the plague, but lightheartedly make sport of it and wish to prove how independent they are. They say that it is God’s punishment; if he wants to protect them he can do so without medicines or our carefulness. This is not trusting God but tempting him. God has created medicines and provided us with intelligence to guard and take good care of the body so that we can live in good health."

"It is even more shameful for a person to pay no heed to his own body and to fail to protect it against the plague the best he is able, and then to infect and poison others who might have remained alive if he had taken care of his body as he should have. He is thus responsible before God for his neighbor’s death and is a murderer many times over."

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/may-web-only/martin-luther-plague-pandemic-coronavirus-covid-flee-letter.html


This could have been written today, just substitute COVID for plague and omit the God references. Exactly the same conditions.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:03 am
@izzythepush,
There were definitely pogroms against Jews in England. I can think of two, one having to deal with a child thrown down a well and an apprentice found dead on a road, there were several more over Jews allegedly using christian baby's blood and bone flour.

Edward (as had John, Richard and Henry II before him) depended on Jews to finance them. Arron of York - for example, was still doing this for Henry III, in the late 1290's.

Edward was interested in deporting poor Jews and he let the better to do stay, particularly to secure loans and sell debts to, because the Church was a little hard on money lenders.

I have two books I've reread (with no exaggeration) at least ten times in the 15 or so years I've had them, Who's Who in the Early Medieval England and Who's who in Late Medieval England.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:09 am
@bobsal u1553115,
There were, but that was before and during the reign of Edward I.

After Edward I the only "Jewish people" were converts. Elizabeth I's doctor Roderigo Lopez was the most famous convert who was also convicted trying to poison her.

I'm not saying that Jewish people weren't treated appallingly over here, being exiled was pretty harsh after all, but after Edward I expelled them all there weren't any living here until Oliver Cromwell.
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bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 10:41 am
@Mame,
I'm Lutheran and it surprised me!
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maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 12:27 pm
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-women-should-remain-at-home-sit-still-keep-house-and-bear-and-bring-up-children-if-a-martin-luther-121-23-17.jpg
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 12:29 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Those sound like great books, bobusal. I'm going to see if my library has them. If not, maybe I can find them on Abebooks. The medieval is my favourite period.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 12:30 pm
@Mame,
Ha! They have them and they're on order. Funnily enough, I'm first in line, lol.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 02:19 pm
@maxdancona,
For God created the woman to be with her husband, to bear children and to be a steward of the household.
Luther's image of women is shaped by the Fall: the seductive Eve as the main culprit.

As for Luther and the pandemic (here: plague):

Between the end of July and the end of October 1527, on the occasion of a request from the Breslau community, he wrote his influential paper "Ob man vor dem Sterben fliehen möge" (Whether to Flee from Dying).
In it, he expressed understanding for all those who wanted to leave the areas affected by the plague. Fleeing was not a sin. However, he was also concerned about the continuation of organisational structures, which is why he demanded that officials, priests and relatives to care for the sick were obliged to stay.
The illness was not a punishment from God, but came from the devil - the plague thus became a test of faith. Therefore, medical help and the usual defence measures are legitimate and appropriate, but the true doctor and comforter is Christ.
Luther's sharp condemnation of the irresponsibility of those who were only slightly ill, who mingled with healthy people and thus infected them, seems almost relevant to our time. Those who do this intentionally are even comparable to murderers.

bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2021 03:08 pm
@Mame,
It's part of a series of eight books, all the way from Roman - Anglo Saxon England till Victorian England.
 

 
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