5
   

Why 80 degrees "feels like" 95 degrees (and why this is stupid).

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2021 12:24 pm
Consider a spherical cow of uniform density...

This is a punchline to a Physics joke, the point being that Physicists are very good at finding perfect solutions to certain unrealistic problems. Of course cows aren't spheres and their insides aren't uniform.

Science would have a very difficult time creating a general equation for the loss of heat from a human body. Humans come in different shapes, sizes and consistancies. The amount of heat you lose will depend on your weight and your size and the make up of your body. Humans are made up of fat, and muscle and bones and skin and dangly bits all in different configurations.

Anyone who has studied differential equations in college knows exactly what I am talking about. The flow of heat from an warm object to a cooler substance is complicated even for a pure metal cube.

It would be impossible for someone to construct an accurate mathmatical model of heat loss from a human body without specifying the human body in question. The heat loss from a 110lb woman would be quite different than that from a 220lb man... and there would probably be differences between 220 lb men based on the ratio of muscle to fat.

Before looking into this, I thought the "feels like" temperature referred to a scientific value called the "wet bulb temperature". The Wet bulb temperature has a very well-defined and precise meaning... two scientists would calculate the same value given set conditions.

But it seems like this isn't the case, and that there are many different arbitrary ways to calculate the "feels like" temperature. Some include wind speed, some don't. Worse, no one seems to tell you how it is calculated.

You are given a number out of context with no indication on how it is measured. As a former science teacher, this is a bad thing.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2021 01:17 pm
@maxdancona,
I really think you're over-complicating what is really a non-issue.
Quote:
Science would have a very difficult time creating a general equation for the loss of heat from a human body.

But that's not what the THI is supposed to do. The "feels like" association is a simplification that got boiled down into a cute catchy phrase, much like "defund the police" and other crude slogans meant to convey an idea which cries out for more explanation.

For every cubic centimeter of water evaporated the surface temperature is cooled one degree centigrade*. The less water evaporated the less cooling. High temperatures cue the body to begin cooling itself through perspiration. Air movement aids in evaporation. But the higher the humidity, the less moisture is absorbed by the atmosphere. At a certain level of humidity, even a stiff wind will not evaporate moisture from a surface. The THI simply (simplistically) gives the average person listening to a short weather report a quick way to gauge how comfortable it will be doing activities outdoors.

I can't believe I'm actually defending a dumbed-down "measurement" used by weather forecasters, whose reports are already significantly dumbed-down for popular consumption. You raise some valid points, and thank you for bringing this to the attention of this forum, but eventually it's like using a baseball bat to dispatch a cockroach. It's overkill. It's just a guide for people who might not otherwise grasp the relation between temperature, humidity, and personal comfort.

Quote:
As a former science teacher, this is a bad thing.

No, it's not "bad". Nor is it "good". It's not a something to which such values can be applied. Inaccurate, arbitrary, unscientific it may be but it isn't bad. People aren't harmed by it and it's intended to be helpful.

EDIT: *This is the definition of one degree centigrade which I learned in the 8th grade. If it's incorrect, there is still a way to measure cooling by surface evaporation as that is a measurable phenomenon.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2021 02:19 pm
@hightor,
Your science explanation is completely wrong. What you describe sounds an awful lot like the definition of a joule. This is only indirectly related to the concept of evaporation.

To calculate the change to "surface temperature" you would start with the heat of evaporation for water. But surface temperature is complex and involves a constant flow of energy in a complex system. You would need partial differential equations to solve this system, and the temperature and quantity of water would impact the result.

In short, I am not over complicating this. You need four semesters of calculus to start to make these calculations.
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2021 04:10 pm
I take a hike every day in the wild even during the summer in Dallas. I hike in the early evening when the temperature cools down to around 9o degrees. The humidity varies, but it's fairly dry in the summer. Notably, if there is no breeze-- and there usually isn't--it feels hot. However, to stop and rest is oppressive. Just the mild breeze created by walking, two to three miles per hour, is enough to noticeably cool you off.

That's why I think it's important to take the air movement in account when figuring the heat index. Eighty degrees in a closed room with no air movement is oppressive, but with a fan it's comfortable.

hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 03:48 am
@coluber2001,
Quote:
Eighty degrees in a closed room with no air movement is oppressive, but with a fan it's comfortable.

The comfort is derived from the cooling effect that the evaporation of moisture from your skin provides. If the air is saturated with moisture the evaporation won't occur and neither will the feeling of comfort, although we may prefer it to the room with no air movement.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 04:09 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Your science explanation is completely wrong.

Not "completely". In my edit (not trusting things I was taught in junior high school) I said, "If it's incorrect, there is still a way to measure cooling by surface evaporation as that is a measurable phenomenon." You suggested a method by which it could be scientifically measured, but the principle of evaporative cooling is sound.

Quote:
To calculate the change to "surface temperature" you would start with the heat of evaporation for water. But surface temperature is complex and involves a constant flow of energy in a complex system. You would need partial differential equations to solve this system, and the temperature and quantity of water would impact the result.


But, for the purposes of the THI, you don't need these calculations; you're over complicating it, assuming it's some sort of precise scientific measurement when it isn't and doesn't purport to be. The evaporation of moisture on your skin cools you; that's why we sweat.
Quote:
Water evaporating takes quite a lot of heat away -- 540 calories per gram -- when it evaporates.

The THI merely indicates that the effectiveness of this evaporative cooling decreases as the humidity increases.

Quote:
You need four semesters of calculus to start to make these calculations.

But you don't need to do those calculations when you're employing something as dumbed down as the THI.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 09:10 am
@hightor,
You are being silly Hightor. You are making an argument based on a vague misremembered lesson from junior high. You clearly don't know what you are talking about (and you seem to admit this).

Let's be clear about the facts.

1. Yes, humans use evaporative cooling. Under normal conditions this means that humans are more effective at cooling themselves at lower humidity. In short the principle "less humidity, more comfortable human" is true in most circumstances where humans might be too hot.

2. The precise amount that humans cool down from evaporative cooling varies from humman to human and is scientifically quite complex.

3. Predicting the effects of evaporative cooling based on on a wide range of humans is scientifically impossible without taking into account the body weight, height, fat content and distribution and probably metabolism of the individual human... and even then it would be a probably impossibly difficult calculation.

I would like to know if you accept these facts?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 09:19 am
@maxdancona,
My point is this.

1. The "Feels Like" temperature (or RealFeel or however else it is being marketed) is not a scientifically accurate measurement about how the wide range of human beings experience the effects of heat in different conditions.

2. The news outlets don't actually tell us how they are calculating these numbers (googling seems to show that these calculations are different from place to place). However, these caculated values do appear go up as the humdity goes up... which is good.

If people believe that these "Fells like" temperatures are scientifically valid indications of how they are feel they are wrong. My fear is that some proportion of viewers are being deceived. These "feels like temperatures" are presented as authoritative numeric values... even though no one knows what they actually mean.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 10:34 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are being silly Hightor.

You are being characteristically obtuse, maxdancona.

Quote:
I would like to know if you accept these facts?


Sure. I've said so repeatedly. And I'm not basing my argument on misinformation I received in junior high school. The principle that evaporation results in cooling is accepted by you.

What I'm saying is that you're mistakenly treating the THI as a precise, scientific measurement and it isn't. You're trying to make it do more than it's meant to do.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 10:39 am
@hightor,
Actually it sounds like we are in agreement on both counts.

I suppose we can stop arguing now.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 10:53 am
I've always thought it was the propensity to sensationalism inspiring the TV weather forecasters to bear down on the "feels like" instead of the actual.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 11:11 am
@edgarblythe,
TV meteorology can be pretty awful sometimes. There's just enough analysis of graphs and historical data to make these reporters appear "scientific" when, in reality, they're more interested in entertainment. Do you remember when weather reporters were regularly brought out, as "experts", to denounce the whole idea of climate change?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 11:16 am
@hightor,
I have to disagree with you about TV meterology

The TV will tell me with remarkable accuracy what the weather will be like for me several days in advance. This is pretty amazing and shows the advancement of meterological science.

When the TV tells me to expect a foot of snow in threr days... that is useful information that woukd have been impossible to give me 50 years ago.

The entertainment is extra.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 11:17 am
@hightor,
I always sort of went deaf when they did that. I mostly tune in to see the radar and find out if fronts and pressure systems are moving.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 11:25 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I have to disagree with you about TV meterology

Oh, good! I was starting to worry. Smile
I have to admit, I no longer even watch TV. But those forecasts could simply be given in a straight forward format without all the show biz.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2021 12:15 pm
Forecasting Houston weather is generally accurate on TV, except our position relative to the gulf can throw in a monkey wrench. A front with lots of rain will be coming and they call for an 80 or 100 percent chance of rain, but it often sweeps off the side just before reaching Houston. Or the front will slow down and just stop before reaching here.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2022 11:17 am
@engineer,
Humans can't endure temperatures and humidities as high as previously thought

Quote:
UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. — As climate change nudges the global temperature higher, there is rising interest in the maximum environmental conditions like heat and humidity to which humans can adapt. New Penn State research found that in humid climates, that temperature may be lower than previously thought.

It has been widely believed that a 35°C wet-bulb temperature (equal to 95°F at 100% humidity or 115°F at 50% humidity) was the maximum a human could endure before they could no longer adequately regulate their body temperature, which would potentially cause heat stroke or death over a prolonged exposure.

Wet-bulb temperature is read by a thermometer with a wet wick over its bulb and is affected by humidity and air movement. It represents a humid temperature at which the air is saturated and holds as much moisture as it can in the form of water vapor; a person’s sweat will not evaporate at that skin temperature.

But in their new study, the researchers found that the actual maximum wet-bulb temperature is lower — about 31°C wet-bulb or 87°F at 100% humidity — even for young, healthy subjects. The temperature for older populations, who are more vulnerable to heat, is likely even lower.

W. Larry Kenney, professor of physiology and kinesiology and Marie Underhill Noll Chair in Human Performance, said the results could help people better plan for extreme heat events, which are occurring more frequently as the world warms.

“If we know what those upper temperature and humidity limits are, we can better prepare people — especially those who are more vulnerable — ahead of a heat wave,” Kenney said. “That could mean prioritizing the sickest people who need care, setting up alerts to go out to a community when a heatwave is coming, or developing a chart that provides guidance for different temperature and humidity ranges.”

Kenney added that it’s important to note that using this temperature to assess risk only makes sense in humid climates. In drier climates sweat is able to evaporate from the skin, which helps cool body temperature. Unsafe dry heat environments rely more on the temperature and the ability to sweat, and less on the humidity.

The study was recently published in the Journal of Applied Physiology.

S. Tony Wolf, postdoctoral researcher in Kinesiology at Penn State, right, and Rachel Cottle, graduate student in exercise physiology, discuss the data collected during a session in the lab. Credit: Patrick Mansell / Penn State. Creative Commons

According to the researchers, while previous studies have theorized that a 35°C wet-bulb temperature was the upper limit of human adaptability, that temperature was based on theory and modeling and not real-world data from humans.

Kenney said that he and the other researchers wanted to evaluate this theoretical temperature as part of the PSU H.E.A.T. (Human Environmental Age Thresholds) project, which is examining how hot and humid an environment has to be before older adults start to have problems tolerating heat stress.

“If you look at heat wave statistics, most of the people who die during heat waves are older people,” Kenney said. “The climate is changing, so there are going to be more — and more severe — heat waves. The population is also changing, so there are going to be more older adults. And so it's really important to study the confluence of those two shifts.”

For this study, the researchers recruited 24 participants between the ages of 18 and 34. While the researchers plan to also perform these experiments in older adults, they wanted to start with younger people.

“Young, fit, healthy people tend to tolerate heat better, so they will have a temperature limit that can function as the ‘best case’ baseline,” Kenney said. “Older people, people on medications, and other vulnerable populations will likely have a tolerance limit below that.”

Prior to the experiment, each participant swallowed a tiny radio telemetry device encased in a capsule that would then measure their core temperature throughout the experiment.

Then, the participant entered a specialized environmental chamber that had adjustable temperature and humidity levels. While the participant performed light physical activity like light cycling or walking slowly on a treadmill, the chamber either gradually increased in temperature or in humidity until the participant reached a point at which their body could no longer maintain its core temperature.

After analyzing their data, the researchers found that critical wet-bulb temperatures ranged from 25°C to 28°C in hot-dry environments and from 30°C to 31°C in warm-humid environments — all lower than 35°C wet-bulb.

“Our results suggest that in humid parts of the world, we should start to get concerned — even about young, healthy people — when it's above 31 degrees wet-bulb temperature,” Kenney said. “As we continue our research, we’re going to explore what that number is in older adults, as it will probably be even lower than that.”

Additionally, the researchers added that because humans adapt to heat differently depending on the humidity level, there is likely not a single cutoff limit that can be set as the “maximum” that humans can endure across all environments found on Earth.

psu.edu
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2022 11:33 am
@hightor,
Not quite the same but oved here male MPs have been wearing suits that simulate the hot flushes that occur during the menopause.

They couldn't wait to take them off.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2022 05:31 am
Why you need to worry about the ‘wet-bulb temperature’

Quote:
n March, April and May this year, India and its neighbours endured repeated heatwaves that exposed more than a billion people to dangerously hot conditions. India broke several temperature records. The warmest March in more than a century was recorded across the country and a new high of more than 49C was hit in Delhi in May.

Record-breaking heat has also been recorded elsewhere this year, including the UK, which smashed its previous record by an incredible 1.6C, reaching more than 40C. Portugal reached 47C on the 21st of this month, the hottest July day on record, while several places in France recorded new highs.

These heatwaves have reignited the debate about how we can protect people from rising temperatures – and how high we can stand them to go. But the headline figures do not give the whole story when it comes to the impact of high temperatures on humans, because humidity, which is not factored into these figures, plays a huge role in how we actually experience heat.

Recent research has found that we may actually already be nearing the threshold values for human survivability of temperature and humidity for short periods in some places of the world – a measure known as the “wet-bulb” temperature – and that this threshold may actually be far lower than previously thought.

What does wet-bulb temperature mean?

Wet-bulb temperature (WBT) combines dry air temperature (as you’d see on a thermometer) with humidity – in essence, it is a measure of heat-stress conditions on humans.

The term comes from how it is measured. If you slide a wet cloth over the bulb of a thermometer, the evaporating water from the cloth will cool the thermometer down. This lower temperature is the WBT, which cannot go above the dry temperature. If humidity in the surrounding air is high, however – meaning the air is already more saturated with water – less evaporation will occur, so the WBT will be closer to the dry temperature.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7ab3ef656c0f7bb6a2cfb7cdc58a0f82a27d00b7/0_288_8640_5184/master/8640.jpg?width=620&quality=85&fit=max&s=e7abed6618a714ed0b23432f0f358568
The bed of the River Yamuna in Delhi in May.

“The [wet-bulb] temperature reading you get will actually change depending on how humid it is,” says Kristina Dahl, a climate scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “That’s the real purpose, to measure how well we’ll be able to cool ourselves by sweating.”

Humidity and temperature are not the only things that affect a person’s body temperature: solar radiation and wind speed are other factors. But WBT is especially important as a measure of indoor environments, where deaths often occur in heatwaves, says W Larry Kenney, a physiology professor at Penn State University.

When do wet-bulb temperatures get dangerous?

Concern often centres on the “threshold” or “critical” WBT for humans, the point at which a healthy person could survive for only six hours. This is usually considered to be 35C, approximately equivalent to an air temperature of 40C with a relative humidity of 75%. (At the UK’s 19 July peak temperature, relative humidity was approximately 25% and the wet-bulb temperature about 25C.)

Humans usually regulate their internal body temperature by sweating, but above the wet-bulb temperature, we can no longer cool down this way, leading our body temperature to rise steadily. This essentially marks a limit to human adaptability to extreme heat – if we cannot escape the conditions, our body’s core can rise beyond the survivable range and organs can start failing.

The oft-cited 35C value comes from a 2010 theoretical study. However, research co-authored by Kenney this year found that the real threshold our bodies can tolerate could be far lower. “Our data is actual human subject data and shows that the critical wet-bulb temperature is closer to 31.5C,” he says.

Bill McGuire, director of the Benfield UCL Hazard Research Centre in the UK, says if the new finding is true, we are in “a whole new ball game” when it comes to extreme heat. “The numbers of people exposed to potentially deadly combinations of heat and humidity across the world would be vastly higher than previously thought.”

It is important to note that heat gets dangerous for many people far below the threshold WBT.

Where could the wet-bulb threshold be passed?

In a global context, the UK is a relatively low-risk area for wet-bulb extremes – it has rarely reached above 28C so far. “My personal feeling is that a wet-bulb temperature of 35C would not be possible in the UK, although 31C may well be later in the century,” says McGuire. “Then again, the Met Office certainly didn’t expect 40C [dry temperature] heat in 2022.”

The risk of passing the WBT threshold is larger elsewhere, however. One 2015 study concluded extremes are likely to approach and exceed 35C in the region around the Arabian Gulf towards the end of the century if greenhouse gas emissions are not reined in, posing questions for human habitability there.

In 2020, research found that some coastal subtropical locations have already experienced WBTs of 35C, albeit only for a few hours.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/9019e81ca0fec928e81decf9db37205d57bdab61/0_373_4500_2700/master/4500.jpg?width=620&quality=85&fit=max&s=b7c4c1675a3e40084530133db3105b6d
An Iraqi man cools down in Baghdad. Temperatures in the country reached 53C in 2020.

“Previous studies projected that this would happen several decades from now, but this shows it’s happening right now,” said lead author Colin Raymond, a climate scientist at Nasa’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory. “The times these events last will increase and the areas they affect will grow in direct correlation with global warming.”

The study also found that globally, the number of times that a WBT of 30C was reached – still considered an extreme humidity and heat event – more than doubled between 1979 and 2017. There were about 1,000 occurrences of a 31C WBT, and about a dozen above 35C, in Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Australia.

One important question is how temperature rises because of the climate crisis correlate with rises in WBT extremes. A study last year found that the maximum WBT in the tropics will rise by 1C for each 1C of average warming. This means limiting global heating to 1.5C above the pre-industrial era would prevent the majority of the tropical area – where 40% of the global population lives – from reaching the survival limit of 35C, the paper said.

Heatwaves are worsening many times faster than any other type of extreme weather because of the climate crisis. Scientists estimate that it made the India and Pakistan heatwave 30 times more likely. As another paper put it, asking whether today’s most impactful heatwaves could have occurred in a pre-industrial climate is “fast becoming an obsolete question”.

Instead, as heatwaves begin affecting more people’s lives more frequently, the question of what we can do about them is becoming ever more important. As the world sees the deadly mix of high humidity and high temperature more and more often, this could ultimately mean that some places simply become too hot to live in, opening up the need for migration pathways to enable millions of people to get away from their home areas.

guardian
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2022 06:29 am
@hightor,
When I was in the navy, I used a "sling psychrometer" for metering the temperature (and humidity).
And I had to do it, when our minesweeper acted as weather ship until the real one was back on station - which was nearly exactly 50 years ago, butonly for a couple of days.
0 Replies
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/26/2024 at 02:31:42