16
   

A MODEST PROPOSAL

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 12:44 pm
@hightor,
well, I jut returnd fom a few hours fishin for sunnies in the pond and I see those who have bought the GOP disenfranchisement vote are checking in.
Texa, suspwct, would be a hrder sell due to the population dynamics. It hav to b a tealthy approach in that state and how many million xtreme conservatives are there???
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 12:49 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

This is PDiddie's response on Twitter:
Lots and lots of Texas Democrats have been doing that for decades. How do you think it's working out?

No offense intended, but every proposed remedy within the two-party system has been tried, and failed, for almost as long as I've been alive

My reply here is that Democrats have been afraid to do it in huge blocks, so it really hasn't been tried by fm's formula.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 01:03 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Progressives are evil because of all the harm that they deliberately cause to innocent people.

Liberals don't "deliberately cause harm to innocent people", that's just one of the many lies and exaggerations in your overly-dramatic catechism. You don't even care about "innocent" people unless they own assault-style weapons or are right-wing apparatchiks.

How'd you like to have to wait on line for six hours to cast your vote?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 01:22 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Liberals don't "deliberately cause harm to innocent people", that's just one of the many lies and exaggerations in your overly-dramatic catechism.

Yes they do. What about Scooter Libby?

What about all the people whose civil liberties are violated merely because progressives think it's fun to violate people's rights?


hightor wrote:
You don't even care about "innocent" people unless they own assault-style weapons or are right-wing apparatchiks.

That's not true. It is likely that most victims of progressives do fall into those two categories. However, I also care about innocents who are victimized by non-progressives.


hightor wrote:
How'd you like to have to wait on line for six hours to cast your vote?

I'd not like it very much. Granted, back in the day I waited in line for much longer than that for concert tickets near the front of arenas. However, I would not find it acceptable to wait that long just to vote.

If any precinct is so overpopulated that the wait is more than ten minutes, I think it should be broken up into smaller and more manageable precincts.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 02:06 pm
@oralloy,
I. Lewis Libby was convicted on four of five counts (one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of perjury, and one count of making false statements) and the conviction was upheld on appeal. He lied to the FBI and to the grand jury — even if he was just a fall guy. The only one "harmed" was Valerie Plame.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 02:15 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I. Lewis Libby was convicted on four of five counts (one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of perjury, and one count of making false statements) and the conviction was upheld on appeal.

That counts as doing harm to him.


hightor wrote:
He lied to the FBI and to the grand jury -- even if he was just a fall guy.

No he didn't. Everything that he said was true.


hightor wrote:
The only one "harmed" was Valerie Plame.

Valerie Plame got what she deserved.

The only victim in this case is Scooter Libby. He is the one who was framed and wrongfully convicted of an imaginary crime.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 07:31 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is a troll thread Brandon. You are being trolled. Dont keep swallowing the bait.

Either play along or let it be.

I respect your opinion, but what I think is that although it's a troll thread, it represents famerman's belief as well as the belief of many liberals. I'm really tired of this whole thing about a lie told often enough becomes true. Republicans are not trying to keep non-white people from voting. I hear this sh*t on the news every other night and I'm not inclined to tolerate it.
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 07:34 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
People have a tendency to divert a thread from its intent by these endless harangues. There are already lots of threads to argue them but you have to dilute farmerman's anyway.

So, basically, you want to create threads in which no one is allowed to dispute the premise of the original post. Not happening.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2021 08:16 pm
@Brandon9000,
Obviously this is a parody thread. But here is my serious opinion

1) The liberals have a valid point with some of the changes to voting laws. The Republicans are clearly trying to change election rules in some places to tilt the vote in their favor. Yes, whether this is intended or not, the result of Republican efforts to change certain voting laws have the dieect reault of making it less likely for minority Americans to cast a vote.

2) The liberals are pushing this valid point way last rhe point that it is valid. They are doing this because they want to tilt the votes in their own favor, and they see political advantage to this narrative.

3) I find the Democracy Under Attack narrative to be both self-serving and silly. The Democrats aren't supporting a single for that doesn't directly benefit themselves.

The discussion about changes to our voting system should be bipartisan, balanced and carefully planned to be good for democracy.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 03:49 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I find the Democracy Under Attack narrative to be both self-serving and silly.

Okay, but you just stated:
Quote:
The Republicans are clearly trying to change election rules in some places to tilt the vote in their favor. Yes, whether this is intended or not, the result of Republican efforts to change certain voting laws have the dieect reault of making it less likely for minority Americans to cast a vote.

Isn't that an attack on democracy?
Quote:
They are doing this because they want to tilt the votes in their own favor, and they see political advantage to this narrative.

It's not a matter of "tilting votes in their favor". It's a matter of removing barriers that the GOP has enacted to stifle minority turnout.
Quote:
The discussion about changes to our voting system should be bipartisan...

Blah, blah, blah – trotting out your centrist drivel once again, as if Greg Abbot had any intention of promoting a carefully-planned bipartisan plan. Where's the middle ground between promoting the turnout of eligible voters and the suppression of turnout by eligible voters?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
  Selected Answer
 
  6  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 05:30 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
This is a troll thread Brandon. You are being trolled. Dont keep swallowing the bait.

Either play along or let it be.

I respect your opinion, but what I think is that although it's a troll thread, it represents famerman's belief as well as the belief of many liberals. I'm really tired of this whole thing about a lie told often enough becomes true. Republicans are not trying to keep non-white people from voting. I hear this sh*t on the news every other night and I'm not inclined to tolerate it.


If you really were tired of a lie told often enough, you would not waste time on the supposed lie about GOP vote suppression, and would concentrate on the HUGE LIE that Trump won the last election.

Fact is, the GOP obviously is into voter suppression...and only the terminally stupid or willfully blind do not realize it. And the voter suppression is not intended to keep red-necks from voting...but is indeed intending to keep non-white from voting.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 06:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
Im sorry but I hadda recognize the post that reflcts my feelings quite accurately. The GOP is involved in so many acts to disenfranchise classes of, eliminate, gerrymander, lie again and again, and to destroy democracy;s use of compromise.

Like the GOP has gotta take ownership of this new imending spike in coronavirus just because they have turned vaccination (or actually anti vaccination) into a political weapon.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 06:51 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Im sorry but I hadda recognize the post that reflcts my feelings quite accurately. The GOP is involved in so many acts to disenfranchise classes of, eliminate, gerrymander, lie again and again, and to destroy democracy;s use of compromise.

Like the GOP has gotta take ownership of this new imending spike in coronavirus just because they have turned vaccination (or actually anti vaccination) into a political weapon.




Thanks, FM. The GOP has fallen off the edge. They have always been playing too close...so it was bound to happen.

Now they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The only way they win is to keep the dregs of society voting for them...and now, the dregs have gone full Trump. They cannot win without appealing to that type...and that type mostly shows them for the haters, racists, misogynists', and science deniers they are. The intelligent in their number (and there are many) should make their way over to the Democrats...or start a new party. Trying to reform the Republican Party is like trying to reform Nazism. Put all the lipstick on it you want...it will still be a pig.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 06:51 am
@Brandon9000,
So ******* up threads is your goal.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 06:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
there is still the LINCOLN PROJECT, theyve not disbnded and are openly and severely critical about what damage Plump has don to his party an the country.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2021 07:00 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

there is still the LINCOLN PROJECT, theyve not disbnded and are openly and severely critical about what damage Plump has don to his party an the country.



Let's hope they can do something, but rehabilitating this messed-up party is gonna take a LOT of doing.

We definitely need a loyal opposition party. No way this Republic works without a very healthy opposition to both extremes.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 05:07 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Obviously this is a parody thread. But here is my serious opinion

1) The liberals have a valid point with some of the changes to voting laws. The Republicans are clearly trying to change election rules in some places to tilt the vote in their favor. Yes, whether this is intended or not, the result of Republican efforts to change certain voting laws have the dieect reault of making it less likely for minority Americans to cast a vote.

2) The liberals are pushing this valid point way last rhe point that it is valid. They are doing this because they want to tilt the votes in their own favor, and they see political advantage to this narrative.

3) I find the Democracy Under Attack narrative to be both self-serving and silly. The Democrats aren't supporting a single for that doesn't directly benefit themselves.

The discussion about changes to our voting system should be bipartisan, balanced and carefully planned to be good for democracy.


I understand that this post was made with good will, but I disagree completely. In the period shortly before the election, the Democrats pushed through a number of laws all of which had the effect of loosening voting security - no ID to vote, mail-in for people with no special need to vote that way and sending unsolicited ballots to everyone, refusing to purge the election rolls of people who were no longer eligible, the creation of unsupervised drop boxes for ballots, allowing election harvesting (people not connected with the election board collecting ballots from the elderly with the promise to turn them in, etc.). Under the present system, cheating would be very easy. The Republicans are trying to restore things to the point that cheating is not easy.

The requirement to produce some form of identification to vote is not an attack on minorities. You have to show ID for things a lot less important than voting. I even saw one bill which would have required ID to vote but allowed 16 different types of ID opposed by the Democrats as racism. Elections in which cheating is easy are the real disenfranchisement. Millions of people believe that cheating played a big role in the 2020 election and I'm one of them. In the past, people have fought wars for the right to vote for their leaders.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 05:21 am
@Brandon9000,
It is an attack on minorities, by and large it’s elderly black people who will be disenfranchised as a result.

If it’s not broke don’t fix it.

There never was a problem with voter security not least because the penalties are so severe for very little gain. You can go to jail just for adding one fraudulent vote to the list, just one vote.

People not being able to vote is a problem, note the huge queues of people waiting for up to five or six hours to vote.

That is a scandal which the laws you mention tried to fix only for your Republicans to fix the system because they can’t win a fair election.

Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 07:05 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

It is an attack on minorities, by and large it’s elderly black people who will be disenfranchised as a result.

If it’s not broke don’t fix it.

There never was a problem with voter security not least because the penalties are so severe for very little gain. You can go to jail just for adding one fraudulent vote to the list, just one vote.

People not being able to vote is a problem, note the huge queues of people waiting for up to five or six hours to vote.

That is a scandal which the laws you mention tried to fix only for your Republicans to fix the system because they can’t win a fair election.



You're wrong. It wasn't broke until the rules were changed for the election of 2020 under the guise of accommodating the pandemic. The changes I outlined:

no ID to vote, mail-in for people with no special need to vote that way and sending unsolicited ballots to everyone, refusing to purge the election rolls of people who were no longer eligible, the creation of unsupervised drop boxes for ballots, allowing election harvesting (people not connected with the election board collecting ballots from the elderly with the promise to turn them in, etc.)

make detecting fraudulent voting nearly impossible. It's a very reasonable requirement to prove your identity before you vote. Why do you believe minorities can't produce some form of identification, when they already have to do it in many other areas of their lives? That attitude by itself sound like racism.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 07:10 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Millions of people believe that cheating played a big role in the 2020 election and I'm one of them.

I don't blame you for coming to this conclusion since you probably hear it on a near daily basis from friends and particular media sources. But there's an explanation. Republicans have a difficult time electing presidents and consistently fail to win the popular vote. If they can't grow their constituency they need to reduce the voting power of their opposition. Complaints about electoral fraud by Republican aren't new, and there are always isolated cases of dead people on voting lists, a misplaced folder full of ballots, or some guy altering his wife's absentee ballot to give some credence to the claims. But the sort of widespread carefully coordinated fraud claimed to have happened in '20 is simply too far-fetched to be believable. That's why all the cases have been thrown out of court.

Let me pose two questions:

1. During his whole term, Trump's popularity never broke 50% and was usually in the low to mid 40s — and that's the percentage of the vote he received in '20. Why would you expect his ratings to suddenly climb above his historic level of approval?

2. If the Democrats were able to change the results in the 2020 election why didn't they also gain more seats in Congress? What would be the sense in making Biden president but not giving him the support he'd need in order to make good on his promises and put his plans into action? If they were smart enough to change results at the top of the ticket, why didn't they apply their techniques to lower level races and give Biden a commanding majority?
 

 
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