Equal representation in Prison

I have to ignore the punches you are throwing to try to understand your underlying point.

Are you really saying that you don't believe that "women and men should be equally represented in corporations and politics"?

If you are willing to say this clearly... I will give you points for surprising me.

That's the case. I do not believe that "women and men should be equally represented in corporations and politics". I'd expect them, however, to be given equal opportunity to seek those positions, and their share of commercial, industrial, and government jobs to increase. I wouldn't want to see widespread implementation of "gender quotas" for businesses and organizations — but even if offices and positions are compelled by a socialist tyrant like Biden to be split 50-50, somehow I doubt we'll see a 50-50 split among the incarcerated. More indictments for "pink collar" crimes perhaps, but not enough to reach parity with men considering the rich palette of criminal opportunity based on tactical brutality alone.

The is an active effort to increase the number of women in software engineer (my current field).

There are a couple of facts that make this difficult.

1. There is real data that the more rights and opportunities given to women, the fewer women choose to enter engineering fields.

2. Most women who spend any amount of time in engineering become managers. Engineering managers deal with schedules, interface with customers and manage employees (i.e. write performance reviews). Engineers deal with technology and make things work. It is not uncommon for engineers to make more than their own managers.

It is very rare to see women in software engineering for more than 5 years who are not managers. Most men in software engineering for more than 5 years remain engineers.

So companies will say they have women in engineering, but it is a bit of an exaggeration. The vast majority of the actual engineering on a senior level is done by men.

I agree with you about providing equal opportunity. The expectation that improving opportunity will lead to more women in senior (non-managerial) engineering posts has proven to be false.

It seems to me that there are intrinsic difference between men and women. As societies change to become more equal you would expect these differences to lessen. Surprisingly the opposite seems to be true, as rights and equality of opportunity improve, the differences between the choosen careers of men and women increase.

Hightor, is it possible that you and I agree about this? That would please me to no end.

I don't think anyone lives in an 'equal society'. And I think, in general, men are more aggressive by nature and conditioning. They are or were expected to provide for their family and to protect them. And there was or is a status to maintain. Not saying women are not expected to do these things, too, but historically, it has fallen on the male population and women were not encouraged to become educated or work. There's still a lot of that thought around, even now.

Actually, the question should be: Why are women less criminal than men?

Because, the term women's crime is downright misleading, because it hardly exists.

When you look into the legal history, you'll notice that such has always been a fact.
And a discussion.

Yes Walter. That is exactly the question.

There is some difference between men and women that leads to the fact that men commit much more crime than women. Maybe this difference is due to social expectations. Maybe this difference is biological.

If the amount of crime committed by men vs women is due to social expectations, then you would expect that as Society got more equal there would be equal criminal activity from men and women.

If men are intrinsically more criminal than women then no matter what social changes we make men will always commit more crime.

Do you agree with this?

Men are more likely to rise to positions of power in many fields from business to science. Men are more likely to end up in jail based on criminal activity.

These two facts are similar. Either they are based on biological differences between men and women, or they are based on societal expectations.

If either of these facts are based on social expectations you would expect the numbers to equal out as Society becomes more equal.

You can find several factors that can serve as reasons for explaining a low level of female criminality.

That's done since the 19th century.
But whatever changed: the crime statistics still show considerably more men than women as perpetrators. In addition, women are sentenced to prison less often because they commit lighter crimes.

Generally, you can look at it
- biologically oriented (as it was done in the very past),
- or one looks for a causal connection between socially different roles and positions of men and women on the one hand and crime on the other.
roles and positions of men and women on the one hand and crime on the other.
- In a socialisation-theoretical approach, gender-specific differences in crime are explained by the thesis of the moral otherness of women.
- In the perspective of the definitional approach, the lower frequency and severity of crime is interpreted as the result of gender-specific differences in criminalisation which are favouring women. In doing so, two central arguments are used, the equal distribution thesis and the chivalry thesis.
- In feminist criminology, the above positions are criticised as products of androcentric thinking. In particular, the distinction between biological and social gender is not taken into account. Gender differences cannot be reduced to biological differences, but must take into account the culturally shaped constructions of 'femininity' and 'masculinity'.

Walter, you're dancing around the simple question.

I have no problem saying confidently that in an equal Society the incarceration rates for for black people and white people will be the same. I am quite sure you will agree with me on this.

I believe this because I do not believe there is any inherent difference in criminality between black people and white people. Therefore the difference in incarceration rates between black people and white people is solely due to social factors. As Society gets more equal I expect incarceration rates to become more balanced. In fact, if this isn't the case to me this is a sign that there is still a problem.

You seem to be implying that men are incarcerated more than women because men are more criminal than women. Do you see the problem?

The simple question I am asking is whether in an equal Society you would expect to see equal incarceration rates for men and women. You still haven't given me a straight answer on this.

I'm not dancing around a simple question because it is no simple question.

You're often referring to your scientific background.
I do know a bit of legal history (from the time, I studied law, used that knowledge when studying history) and got a certification as prevention worker (three year course).


But since that quite some time ago, and since I only attended the mandatory courses in criminology, I don't remember ad hoc all and everything.
However, I do know, that no-one expects to see an equal incarceration rate for men and women - for quite different reasons as noticed above.

1. We don't expect to see an equal incarceration rate between men and women (I accept your claim on this.)

2. We do expect to see an equal incarceration rate between black people and white people (at least I do, and I think most people agree with me).

There is clearly a difference here. The racial disparity is explained by social inequality and is considered an imbalance that will be lessened as society becomes more equal.

There are differences between men and women in their representation in science or business leadership. If you accept that there are intrinsic differences between men and women in terms of behavior, risk taking and aggression, that would explain these differences.

If in an equal society you would expect the outcomes for men and women to remain... then OK.