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Critical thinking skills: Who here has them?

 
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 02:38 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am asking for you to state an significant issue where you think conservatives make a valid point.


Performing this assignment isn't demonstrating "critical thinking skills", it's just playing a game.

Conservatives make a valid point when they decry mob violence associated with protests against the police — I have no doubt that they are sincere, but I don't believe they are applying "critical thinking skills".

Conservatives make a valid point when they try to suppress voting turnout because it makes it easier for them to win elections. Which is correct, i.e. valid, but it doesn't reflect "critical thinking skills".

Conservatives make a valid point when they try to marginalize BLGTQ individuals. They don't like them, they don't want to share their communities with them, so they have a valid point, just not one that exhibits "critical thinking skills".

Based on their perceived interests I recognize that conservatives have reasons for their beliefs and see them as valid. You can't insist that people employ "critical thinking skills"; there's no legal requirement for voters to think deeply, only to vote in their own self-interest. And everyone recognizes the validity of acting in the narrow interests of oneself and one's family. It doesn't require "critical thinking skills".

Demonstrating "critical thinking skills" doesn't mean finding points of agreement with others, it means analyzing particular ideological beliefs for logical consistency and assessing their practical effect.

Quote:
Critical thinking is the ability to question your own beliefs and to see the weaknesses in the arguments made by your own side.

Critical thinking is the ability to question your own beliefs and correct them, and not to be persuaded, affected, or discouraged by people on any "side". Critical thinking only goes so far if you identify with a mass movement.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 04:33 am
How did conservatives lose confidence in science?

Quote:
While conservatives and liberals were similarly confident in scientists as recently as the 1980s, conservatives' views have since dimmed dramatically — a trend that new research says resulted largely from moral conservatives' move to identify with the political right.

In a paper published March 17 in Social Forces, author Austin Kozlowski analyzed responses to NORC's General Social Survey between 1984 and 2016, and found that people with conservative moral views differ starkly from economic conservatives in their skepticism of the scientific community. These moral conservatives, he said, drove much of the ideological divide over science as they identified increasingly as political conservatives.

That shift, which was accompanied by weakening scientific confidence among economic conservatives, shows the importance of understanding how different ideological factions come together to shape the dynamics of political polarization, according to Kozlowski.

His findings "strongly suggest that opposition to the scientific community is not a universal characteristic of the 'political conservative' identity, nor is it strongly associated with economically conservative ideology," he wrote. "Rather, it is predominantly concentrated within the morally conservative faction of self-identifying political conservatives."

"Understanding the political polarization of science and its development over time thus requires careful attention to the distinct strands of conservatism and their changing relationships," he added.

(...)

"I argue that the long-standing anti-scientist sentiment of moral conservatives became organized under the label of political conservatism in the late twentieth century as key historic developments reshaped American conservatism into a bastion of moral traditionalism," he wrote.

(...)

academictimes
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 05:54 am
@hightor,
This is getting comical.

The point of this thread is to ask if you can recognize times when the other side of the political divide makes valid points. Hightor is failing. And now he is doubling down by posting more articles about why his side is right and the other side is wrong.

I was going to say that Hightor's latest response was inappropriate, but it really is not. He is demonstrating my point.

This demonstrates a basic lack of ability to step out of one's narrow ideological bubble and admit even a single case where the other side has a valid point.

hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 06:19 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The point of this thread is to ask if you can recognize times when the other side of the political divide makes valid points.

You mean the thread isn't about "critical thinking" at all but simply a game.

I showed how a bunch of conservative points can be seen as "valid".

What isn't valid is the expectation that masses of people who loosely hold similar opinions and identify themselves as belonging to one "side" should be able to accept valid points from the opposite side without suspending critical judgment. The article shows why this is not a realistic expectation and doesn't represent "critical thinking". Positions based on moral grounds from the perspective of a particular religion are difficult to validate if you don't accept those philosophical premises.

You can have this sort of "critical thinking" dialog in fact-based disciplines. That's not what political affiliations are about. If the other side has "valid" points which fail to deliver the political changes your side hopes to accomplish because they're based on completely different visions of an ideal society, they're not operational and don't affect you political behavior. Trying to balance them against your own side's points which are based on different values is a mug's game.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 06:30 am
@hightor,
Quote:
at all but simply a game.


I don't see any problem with this being a game. I think the ability to see the validity of other points of view is important. But let's say it is a game (with perhaps an important point behind it).

The purpose of this thread is clear. If you don't wan't to play "the game", then why are you here?

Quote:
I showed how a bunch of conservative points can be seen as "valid".


Can you point me to a single specific example? I don't see a single example from you. Why don't you try one now? I will help you get started.

I think that conservatives make a valid point when they say ____________ ?

Can you do this for me?


neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 06:32 am
@maxdancona,
Yes, this is getting comical. I'm glad you recognize your own role in this.

Your "point of this thread" is for you to show off that you are the ONLY one in this forum that uses "critical thinking skills." That is the funniest thing you've posted yet. Ok, maybe not the funniest, there is plenty of responses just as equally quirky though.

So, what you're saying is, I have to find three things about Conservatives that may have valid points.

NO.

Why?

Because YOU say so?

That I'm not using "critical thinking skills" to YOUR satisfaction or beliefs? That's pretty disingenuous of you. I don't find ANY Conservative point to be valid. At all. And here you are, stating my "critical thinking skills" are not being used? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe your point isn't valid?



maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 06:35 am
Let's talk about why this exercise is important?

The inability to accept when the other side has a valid point has a real cost. It means that we are unable to listen, unable to understand and unable to work together.

Instead of having a productive discussion-- we line up into our predictable partisan camps and throw insults at each other. Ideology is more important than facts. Giving even an inch to the other side by admitting they might be right on even a small point is a crime.


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 06:49 am
@neptuneblue,
Quite the contrary Neptune.

I am inviting... even begging Hightor to step out of his bubble and think about where the other side may have some valid points.

And now, since you are here Neptune, I invite you to do the same.
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
  Selected Answer
 
  5  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 06:56 am
@maxdancona,
My stance against conservative dogma IS valid and critical thought out. I do not agree with any of their ideals, therefore I don't have to "admit" to anything.

I've listened, I understood and I totally reject their viewpoint.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 07:01 am
@neptuneblue,
Thank you Neptune. That was beautifully put. I couldn't have worded that better myself.

Yes! Ideology is more important than facts.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 07:46 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
If you don't wan't to play "the game", then why are you here?

To question the premises of your little assignment and to continue a previous discussion. (One of your common games is to hightail it out of one thread to start another where you can attempt to control the discussion.)

Quote:
I don't see a single example from you.

I take it you don't read the responses?

I wrote:
Conservatives make a valid point when they decry mob violence associated with protests against the police — I have no doubt that they are sincere, but I don't believe they are applying "critical thinking skills".

Conservatives make a valid point when they try to suppress voting turnout because it makes it easier for them to win elections. Which is correct, i.e. valid, but it doesn't reflect "critical thinking skills".

Conservatives make a valid point when they try to marginalize BLGTQ individuals. They don't like them, they don't want to share their communities with them, so they have a valid point, just not one that exhibits "critical thinking skills".


Political views based on religious belief are only "valid" for people who subscribe to those beliefs. Here's one well known definition of critical thinking and what it involves:
Edward Glaser wrote:
( 1 ) an attitude of being disposed to consider in a thoughtful way the problems and subjects that come within the range of one's experiences, (2) knowledge of the methods of logical inquiry and reasoning, and (3) some skill in applying those methods.

It so happens that when I look at the political beliefs of conservatives in a thoughtful way based on my experience I can often understand why they believe those things but I can't justify holding those beliefs myself. That's what political parties are about. You seem to suggest that before someone takes a political stand they check out their preferred party and their favorite politicians and then begin to ape the acceptable beliefs. I think that's backwards — people develop their political beliefs over time and will come to associate with the political organization which most closely reflects those values. You assume it's simply ideology, but people can hold conflicting ideologies simultaneously, with ever-varying degrees of intensity.
Quote:
Can you do this for me?

FFS, haven't I already done enough for you? This is my ninth response in two pages!

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 07:57 am
@hightor,
You are being silly.

- You are claiming that suppressing the vote is valid.
- You are claiming that marginalizing BLGTQ individuals is valid.

These aren't your sincere beliefs.


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 08:02 am
@hightor,
An ideology is not a fact. You base your ideology on your political values, and your group identity.

Facts are independent of ideology. Just because conservatives are factually wrong on one claim doesn't mean that they are wrong on other claims. And, many facts stated by conservatives and ignored by liberals are, in fact, correct. You and Neptune are putting ideology first ahead of facts. You accept any fact that supports your ideological narrative, you reject or ignore any fact that supports a conservative narrative.

Critical thinking puts facts first. It prompts you to question your own beliefs fact by independent fact.

I am inviting you to sincerely look for the areas where conservatives make a valid point based on facts.



hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 08:13 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
These aren't your sincere beliefs.

They are conservative beliefs validated by the moral principles they hold.

You say they're not valid because they don't comport to your ideology. I think they're valid but I don't accept the thinking which grounds them.

Quote:
These aren't your sincere beliefs.

That doesn't invalidate them.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 08:18 am
@hightor,
Quote:
They are conservative beliefs validated by the moral principles they hold.


Sigh... they are liberal characterizations of conservatives. You are insulting conservatives to score points in your partisan battle. The conservatives say that liberals want to kill Black babies, and shoot cops.

It is the same childish partisan back and forth. You aren't making any real attempt to step out of your ideological bubble.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 08:24 am
In a possibly hypothetical marriage counseling session (which may or may not have actually happened).

Therapist: Tell me one thing you appreciate about your spouse.
Wife: I appreciate how my husband leaves his dirty underwear on the floor.
Husband: And I appreciate how my wife won't stop nagging me all of the time.

That is where we are on this thread. Maybe this is hopeless.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 08:49 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
An ideology is not a fact.

I never said it was.
Quote:
You base your ideology on your political values, and your group identity.

Speak for yourself.
Quote:
And, many facts stated by conservatives and ignored by liberals are, in fact, correct.

Such as?
Quote:
You and Neptune are putting ideology first ahead of facts.

You can't know that for a fact; I'm assuming you're not a real life friend of Neptune Blue and you really know next to nothing about me and my motivations.
Quote:
You accept any fact that supports your ideological narrative, you reject or ignore any fact that supports a conservative narrative.

Forget the "ideological narrative" — it doesn't direct the assessment of facts as you claim. You provided three examples of "valid conservative points" on page one.

you wrote:
1) I believe the conservatives make a valid point about free-speech.

As do liberals. If college campuses were the only arena for unbridled political discussion there would be more validity to the conservative argument.
you wrote:
2) I believe conservatives made a valid point about religious liberty.

I believe that the conservative courts have turned the establishment clause on its head and now allow religious belief to justify prejudicial behavior, giving those who claim to be religious more rights than non-religious citizens. Their point is validated by their beliefs and a politically-motivated reinterpretation of the First Amendment based on those beliefs but not by facts. Codifying this issue leads to situations I referred to previously where a medical worker with moral objections could be forced to save the life of a perceived moral degenerate in an emergency. And how do we determine who is sincerely religious and who just embraces a prejudicial ideology of selective intolerance?
you wrote:
3) I believe that conservatives have valid points about the rapid societal change around ideas about gender.

I have yet to form a settled opinion on these gender questions. There are facts which validate different responses and society will work through the problem over time.

I'm closest to outward agreement with conservatives in regard to immigration issues but for completely different reasons and, as a result, I couldn't support the actions of the previous administration.

hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 08:59 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are insulting conservatives to score points in your partisan battle.

Conservatives have no reason to be insulted by my characterization of their positions.
Quote:
The conservatives say that liberals want to kill Black babies, and shoot cops.

Some stupid ones say that but my characterizations were nowhere as extreme.
Quote:
You aren't making any real attempt to step out of your ideological bubble.

You aren't making any effort to see how people arrive at their political positions and just write it all off as an "ideological bubble".
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 09:04 am
@hightor,
You can disagree with someone on an issue and still accept that they have a point. That is part of critical thinking.

Here is another example. I agreed with Trump when he said "The cure can't be worse than the disease". This is not only undeniably true, but it also calls for a thoughtful reasoning of response rather than a knee-jerk reaction.

Secretly many Democratic leaders are following Trump's principle and arguing for a controlled reopening that considers economic needs as important. Of course no Democrat will say this.

I strongly disagreed with Trump's Covid policy (which was actually difficult since his policy was so ill-defined). But it doesn't mean that he didn't say things that were correct. It should be obvious that I think Trump was a populist buffoon. That doesn't mean that I have to reject everything he said just because he said it.

When you deny facts because of who they come from, you are denying facts. We are in this idea where any show of accepting facts from the opposition is punished.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2021 10:50 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I agreed with Trump when he said "The cure can't be worse than the disease".

Wow, how non-ideological of you. That's not original, it's a well-known truism, often trotted out, not a conclusion based on a thorough assessment of specific unfolding events. If the cure in this case was to mask up, practice social distancing, practice hand hygiene, stay indoors and avoid crowds, Trump undercut the cure; we still have the disease, and now it's on the rise again. So we didn't do the cure and we still have the disease...fail.

Look, I'm sure Trump has said things that I agree with but I reserve my right to analyze the statement and see if it actually means anything.
Trump wrote:
The worst things in history have happened when people stop thinking for themselves, especially when they allow themselves to be influenced by negative people. That's what gives rise to dictators. Avoid that at all costs. Stop it first on a personal level, and you will have contributed to world sanity as well as your own.

Yeah, I agree!
Quote:
Secretly many Democratic leaders are following Trump's principle and arguing for a controlled reopening that considers economic needs as important.

Um...how do they do this "in secret"?
Quote:

When you deny facts because of who they come from, you are denying facts.

Facts can be misused.
Quote:
We are in this idea where any show of accepting facts from the opposition is punished.

Brad Raffensperger is a case in point.







 

 
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