I have never been proven incorrect (only an idiot says this)

@Real Music,

Real Music wrote:

1. In policy, in politics, and in court rooms, circumstantial evidence is often used to determine verdicts and conclusions.

2. The actual verdict or actual conclusion are not always going to be testable.

3. Sometimes, based on the circumstantial evidence, we make reasonable conclusions.

4. Just because a conclusion is not testable, doesn't necessarily mean that we cannot make reasonable conclusions based on the circumstantial evidence.

There is a difference between fact and an opinion. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, provided you are honest that it is just an opinion. There is nothing wrong with making a circumstantial argument based on circumstantial evidence. That isn't what I am talking about.

Facts are testable. Logic is objective. When someone claims that something is a "fact", they should be able to provide a test for it. If you just state that your fact is true, without any way to test it... it isn't really a fact.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

My goal here (which I concede may be a silly, unrealistic goal) is intelligent discussion. If people can't agree on what a fact is, intelligent discussion is impossible.

What we have is people arranging themselves in narrow ideological battle lines throwing mud at each other. Maybe you all like doing this, but I would like to see something more interesting.

This is also important for us as a country. I want a competent government to make intelligent policy based on facts. I don't want ideological passion and prejudice from either the left or the right to drive policy. Building the ability to have political discourse based on facts is important for bringing the country together after this extremely divisive time.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

1. Would it be logical for me to say that a person is racist for saying that black people are ignorant monkeys?

2. Yes, it is my opinion that that person is clearly racist.

3. But, it is also logical for me to have that a opinion.

1 Reply

@Real Music,

Whether something is racist is an "opinion" unless you can give me a way to test whether something is "racist" or not. If you can provide a definition for the word "racist" and then we can check in an objective way to see if what they said meets that definition... then it would be a fact. However the same test would apply to everyone (including people on your side). That is what makes it "objective".

Otherwise it is just an opinion. There is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but when Oralloy accuses you of being a racist (which he does)... no one considers that a fact (other than him of course).

If you call Oralloy a racist and Oralloy calls you a racist, what we get is a mud throwing contest rather than an intelligent conversation. Generally that leads to pages of back and forth name-calling with zero value. And that is my point.

Facts are testable.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Anyone who claims never to be wrong is certainly wrong.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Agreed

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

If you (or anyone else) ever makes a factual argument I will be happy to respond to it. By factual argument I mean based on testable facts.

That isn't even remotely true. I present you with factual arguments all the time. You always run away screaming in terror.

maxdancona wrote:

You simply stating that your arguments are factual (as if that makes them factual) is silly.

Stating that the arguments are factual is not what makes them factual, and I've never said any such thing.

What makes my arguments factual is the mere fact that they are true.

Stating that facts are true does not create reality. It merely acknowledges reality.

Pointing out that the truth is true is not silly.

maxdancona wrote:

I live by these principles. I am happy to back up any of my facts with the way to test them.

Thanks, but I don't need your help to disprove any untrue claims that you might make. I'm capable of making my own arguments.

maxdancona wrote:

An idiot is always right because it is impossible to prove him wrong.

Nonsense. I prove idiots wrong all the time.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

My goal here (which I concede may be a silly, unrealistic goal) is intelligent discussion.

Nonsense. You run screaming in terror whenever I offer intelligent discussion.

maxdancona wrote:

If people can't agree on what a fact is, intelligent discussion is impossible.

Maybe so.

maxdancona wrote:

What we have is people arranging themselves in narrow ideological battle lines throwing mud at each other. Maybe you all like doing this, but I would like to see something more interesting.

I too would like to see something more interesting. But I'm wise enough to realize that I can't make you stop fleeing in terror whenever an intelligent discussion is offered.

There's some kind of saying about having the serenity to accept what you cannot change.

maxdancona wrote:

This is also important for us as a country. I want a competent government to make intelligent policy based on facts. I don't want ideological passion and prejudice from either the left or the right to drive policy. Building the ability to have political discourse based on facts is important for bringing the country together after this extremely divisive time.

The country is not going to come together. You don't get to wage a holy war of absolute destruction against one side, and then stop on a dime once you are in power and say that it's now time for everyone to come together and stop fighting.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

when Oralloy accuses you of being a racist (which he does)... no one considers that a fact (other than him of course).

Nonsense. Where have I ever called Real Music a racist?

He is a horrible person. He is actually evil in fact. But I've never seen any evidence that he is racist, and I defy you to cite a post where I've called him racist.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Fine.. replace "racist" with "horrible evil person". The point remains.

There are no testable facts. There is no possibility of intelligent discussion. Just pages and pages of mud slinging.

I wish there was a conservative here who believed in testable facts.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I believe in testable facts. You're the one who runs screaming in terror any time you see a fact.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I have never once seen you suggest a way to test your alleged (facts). You just keep on insisting that they are true.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I have never once seen you suggest a way to test your alleged (facts).

Well duh. It's not my job to give you kindergarten lessons in how to debate.

You test facts by seeing if you can prove them wrong.

maxdancona wrote:

You just keep on insisting that they are true.

Not quite. I also offer to provide cites if anyone has any doubts.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

Any idiot can provide cites for anything. Whether you are selling MAGA, or UFOs or 9/11 conspiracy theories, or the Flat Earth... it is easy to provide cites. They are meaningless.

What you fail to give are testable facts. By testable, it means that there is some piece of evidence that will get you to admit that your fact is wrong.

When you insist your facts are true, you are being ridiculous. Cites don't change anything because any idiot can provide sites.

I want testable facts.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

When an idiot gives you facts, it is impossible to prove them wrong. People who aren't idiots accept evidence that proves their facts wrong. An idiot is always right.

When intelligent people provide a fact they will say ..."if you provide this evidence, I will admit my fact is incorrect" An idiot will never admit they are wrong.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Any idiot can provide cites for anything. Whether you are selling MAGA, or UFOs or 9/11 conspiracy theories, or the Flat Earth... it is easy to provide cites. They are meaningless.

Wrong. Cites are not meaningless. Cites prove that what is claimed is true.

maxdancona wrote:

What you fail to give are testable facts. By testable, it means that there is some piece of evidence that will get you to admit that your fact is wrong.

I provide testable facts all the time.

You never test them because you know that they will pass the test. And, being dishonest, you want to insinuate that the truth isn't true.

maxdancona wrote:

When you insist your facts are true, you are being ridiculous.

Hardly. Reality is true no matter how much you dislike it.

maxdancona wrote:

Cites don't change anything because any idiot can provide sites.

Wrong. Cites prove that the claim is true.

maxdancona wrote:

I want testable facts.

No you don't. You want to insinuate that reality isn't true.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

When an idiot gives you facts, it is impossible to prove them wrong.

Wrong again. I prove idiots wrong all the time.

maxdancona wrote:

People who aren't idiots accept evidence that proves their facts wrong.

True.

Not terribly relevant.

But true.

maxdancona wrote:

An idiot is always right.

No they aren't.

maxdancona wrote:

When intelligent people provide a fact they will say ..."if you provide this evidence, I will admit my fact is incorrect"

Wrong. They say that if you prove that their claim is untrue, then they will accept that it is untrue.

Nobody states ahead of time what this proof has to be.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

You present your opinions as facts then dare people to disprove your opinion.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

That's another lie. You cannot provide a single example of me ever presenting my opinions as facts.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Sure, that's easy to do. Your opinions are not facts.

1 Reply

I have never been proven incorrect (only an idiot says this)

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