value of prayer

@shug23,

shug23 wrote:

what value does prayer or asking others to pray for you have, other than making you feel better? Does the Bible suggest that God will modify natural laws or modify the odds (if someone is sick or watching a football game)?

Jesus gave the Lord's Prayer as an example of how to pray. It helps us ask for forgiveness and asks for help in forgiving those who trespass against us. It asks that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

So assuming that people are always happy in heaven, praying will bring them happiness on Earth, whether it is by healing their sickness or just helping them find the strength to endure it and find happiness throughout, or at least at some point of deliverance, e.g. a moments of distraction where they are able to focus on other things besides being sick.

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@shug23,

Quote:

Does the Bible suggest that God will...
...watching a football game?

The Bible makes no mention of football (American or the soccer game variety).

The Bible makes no mention of basketball, baseball, hockey, curling, or sports in general. God might not be too interested in sports. Not sure if his child was.

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yes, I was being a little tongue in check re the football reference. I was raised to think (or perhaps have come to believe) that God put everything in motion and then just stepped back, leaving man and nature to run their course......so other than psychological reasons, I am questioning what is the point of prayer (not that there is anything wrong with for comfort)

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@shug23,

Supposedly, the purpose of prayer is to remember to always ask for help when needed and to be reminded that there are others. Those others might have a different set of wants and needs. Therefore, of a prayer seems unanswered, perhaps it was answered for somebody else.

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It makes sense to take a time-out from whatever is going on in ones life and do some soul searching or have moments of reflection and remembrance. And if that is one purpose of prayer, I don't have any issue with it.......I also don't have any issue with prayer if it comforts people to do it, perhaps knowing other people are praying for you in a time of distress is helpful...All well and good. But praying to God ? Is there a basis to think He will act and change the probabilities of an expected outcome if one prays vs if one does not pray ?

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@shug23,

It's pretty much anyone's guess. If someone believes it works of doesn't, if nobody is getting hurt, it doesn't bother me.

There are people who meditate. That is for me similar to prayer, just less of a direct focus on one God.

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@Sturgis,

Sturgis wrote:

Quote:
Does the Bible suggest that God will...
...watching a football game?

The Bible makes no mention of football (American or the soccer game variety).

The Bible makes no mention of basketball, baseball, hockey, curling, or sports in general. God might not be too interested in sports. Not sure if his child was.

There is wrestling in the Bible.

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@shug23,

shug23 wrote:

It makes sense to take a time-out from whatever is going on in ones life and do some soul searching or have moments of reflection and remembrance. And if that is one purpose of prayer, I don't have any issue with it.......I also don't have any issue with prayer if it comforts people to do it, perhaps knowing other people are praying for you in a time of distress is helpful...All well and good. But praying to God ? Is there a basis to think He will act and change the probabilities of an expected outcome if one prays vs if one does not pray ?

Think of it in terms of what the Lord's Prayer asks about God's will being done on Earth as it is in heaven. If God's will can be done on Earth, that means there is a chance of things being better here despite the fact that we know it is Earth and not heaven.

So when you pray and get yourself in tune with (seeking) God('s will), then you are petitioning the Lord to give you the higher perspective you need to see things more clearly and thus experience less suffering in this world of mixed good and evil.

So if you think everything will just be the same regardless of whether you pray or not, you are forgetting that all our actions make a difference, not just external actions but also the ones we do inside ourselves, such as thoughts and prayers.

When you foresake your inner spirit, you better watch out that it doesn't foresake you!

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Thanks for responding. I guess I continue to believe God follows the Prime Directive and that while prayer may have value to a man (or woman), it will not cause God to do anything to affect a prayed for result

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check

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@shug23,

shug23 wrote:

Thanks for responding. I guess I continue to believe God follows the Prime Directive and that while prayer may have value to a man (or woman), it will not cause God to do anything to affect a prayed for result

Why do you think that God is absent from anything that is going on?

If you are able to understand the creation of the universe in terms of authorship by a creator, then at what point does the process of creation stop, in your mind? Why wouldn't you think that it has continued on to manifest everything that has happened up until the present and beyond?

If God, His angels and spirits, both good and evil, are always working on manifesting everything that happens, what role would human prayer play in that? What are humans' role in the universe in terms of their inner/spiritual life as well as their outer/material actions?

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Why do you think that God is absent from anything that is going on?

I didn't say that he is absent. I am of an opinion that He would not respond to individual prayers or group prayer requests submitted by parishioners. My question restated is " Is the value of prayer to give comfort and hope, or is it to petition God to take some specific action?" (Where in the Bible does it suggest God might intervene is a related question?)

If you are able to understand the creation of the universe in terms of authorship by a creator, then at what point does the process of creation stop, in your mind?

I do not understand how the universe was created. Raised in a Quaker tradition, I can accept the possibility that a God created the universe and then He set up all the natural laws of biology, physics, chemistry and so on - and even natural laws that we don't yet understand. (I can also accept the possibility that there are multiple gods or no gods). In my mind, creation started and ended with the Big Bang

If God, His angels and spirits, both good and evil, are always working on manifesting everything that happens, what role would human prayer play in that? What are humans' role in the universe in terms of their inner/spiritual life as well as their outer/material actions?

No idea; I don't think God, angels, spirits are always working on manifesting everything. I think things were set in motion, what , 14 billion years ago and God gave man feee-will to set his own course

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@shug23,

shug23 wrote:

Why do you think that God is absent from anything that is going on?

I didn't say that he is absent. I am of an opinion that He would not respond to individual prayers or group prayer requests submitted by parishioners. My question restated is " Is the value of prayer to give comfort and hope, or is it to petition God to take some specific action?" (Where in the Bible does it suggest God might intervene is a related question?)

I gave the example of the Lord's Prayer and suggested you think about what it means to say, "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven." You have to do a lot of unpacking of these concepts to extrapolate the kinds of answers you are looking for. E.g. "how can God's will be done on Earth as it is in heaven," "in what ways is Earth different from heaven?" "what causes Earth to be different from heaven?" "how can Earth be different in ways that make it more like heaven?" "are humans sufficiently powerful and/or intelligent as individuals or in networks to make Earth more like heaven?" "what is God's role in human behavior and how does our inner/spiritual behavior, such as prayer, relate to the rest of the universe, both the objective/outer and subjective/inner aspects of life?"

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In my mind, creation started and ended with the Big Bang

When exactly do you think the big bang ended?

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No idea; I don't think God, angels, spirits are always working on manifesting everything. I think things were set in motion, what , 14 billion years ago and God gave man feee-will to set his own course

Ok, so humans are exercising 'free-will' to choose some of our own actions and effects we cause. Is everything in the universe being cause by human actions, then? What about all the things that happen beyond human control?

Now you say that angels and spirits are not working on manifesting things, but how exactly would Christmas come about, for example, without Christmas spirit? If some human(s) suddenly declared there would be a new winter holiday with an unknown name, would the spirit of that holiday motivate people to do everything they do for Christmas?

And as for 'angels, good and evil,' what else do you want to call it when there is non-human agency causing things to happen beyond human control? You can say that things just happen without any agency or intent causing them, but then why not say that human behavior also just happens without any agency or intent causing it? We are, after all, just biological systems governed by physical forces, internal and external, like everything else in the universe, right?

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I gave the example of the Lord's Prayer and suggested you think about what it means to say, "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven." You have to do a lot of unpacking of these concepts to extrapolate the kinds of answers you are looking for. E.g. "how can God's will be done on Earth as it is in heaven," "in what ways is Earth different from heaven?" "what causes Earth to be different from heaven?" "how can Earth be different in ways that make it more like heaven?" "are humans sufficiently powerful and/or intelligent as individuals or in networks to make Earth more like heaven?" "what is God's role in human behavior and how does our inner/spiritual behavior, such as prayer, relate to the rest of the universe, both the objective/outer and subjective/inner aspects of life?"

The problem is, I am not a Biblical scholar, so I really don't know what Heaven is,(nor does anyone else really). It's hard for me to believe any of our memories go with us to heaven, for example.. Otherwise, I am likely to kick your a** in the game of chess but remain clueless on how to fix you car engine. I don't think there is a physical place where people are walking around in Heaven, but probably should read more up on it

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In my mind, creation started and ended with the Big Bang
When exactly do you think the big bang ended?"

less than a second after it began, I gather is current scientific thinking

Quote:

No idea; I don't think God, angels, spirits are always working on manifesting everything. I think things were set in motion, what , 14 billion years ago and God gave man feee-will to set his own course

Ok, so humans are exercising 'free-will' to choose some of our own actions and effects we cause. Is everything in the universe being cause by human actions, then? What about all the things that happen beyond human control?

No, humans hardly cause anything to happen on the universe...Natural laws cause things to happen and I will accept that God created the natural laws

Now you say that angels and spirits are not working on manifesting things, but how exactly would Christmas come about, for example, without Christmas spirit? If some human(s) suddenly declared there would be a new winter holiday with an unknown name, would the spirit of that holiday motivate people to do everything they do for Christmas?

Without knowing what you mean by Christmas spirit, I would submit that Christmas spirit should be a daily occurrence. I think the celebration of Christmas as it is done today is pretty far removed from what it maybe should be

And as for 'angels, good and evil,' what else do you want to call it when there is non-human agency causing things to happen beyond human control? You can say that things just happen without any agency or intent causing them, but then why not say that human behavior also just happens without any agency or intent causing it? We are, after all, just biological systems governed by physical forces, internal and external, like everything else in the universe, right?

Again, not sure what you mean...A lightning strike kills a boy walking home from school.....just bad luck, wrong place and wrong time...nothing more than that

and yes, it is possible we are just biological systems, but I am not making that assertion. I think my assertion is God watches and doesn't act to violate his own laws that He set up because of prayer

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Al Capone once said, "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

Along that line of thinking...and in consideration of the "Prayer can move mountains" trope...

...you can move much more of a mountain with a prayer and a shovel...than you can with a prayer alone.

Much, much more.

Infinitely more.

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@shug23,

shug23 wrote:

The problem is, I am not a Biblical scholar, so I really don't know what Heaven is,(nor does anyone else really). It's hard for me to believe any of our memories go with us to heaven, for example.. Otherwise, I am likely to kick your a** in the game of chess but remain clueless on how to fix you car engine. I don't think there is a physical place where people are walking around in Heaven, but probably should read more up on it

Well, you asked about praying for a sports team to win. So all you have to do is reflect on whether there are sports competitions in heaven, or rather what aspects of sports would or would not be possible in heaven. E.g. if someone has to win and someone has to lose, does that mean there can't be sports in heaven because there is no losing? Or does it mean there's a way to win and/or lose that is not negative in any way? If so, why would you pray for your team to win, if you are happy either way? Heaven is all about goodness without any bad. If something is bad, it's not in heaven (unless there's a way to experience it as good, as in the example of losing the game but nevertheless being happy with the situation).

Quote:

Quote:
In my mind, creation started and ended with the Big Bang
When exactly do you think the big bang ended?"

less than a second after it began, I gather is current scientific thinking

What changed after less than a second that caused it to end? And what began after that that was radically different in terms of creation than what happened before it?

Also, btw, why don't you use quote boxes? It's easier to read.

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No, humans hardly cause anything to happen on the universe...Natural laws cause things to happen and I will accept that God created the natural laws

But you don't see God as continue the process of creation by manifesting things through natural laws/mechanics?

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Without knowing what you mean by Christmas spirit, I would submit that Christmas spirit should be a daily occurrence. I think the celebration of Christmas as it is done today is pretty far removed from what it maybe should be

The point is whether humans would do the things they do for Christmas without the Christmas spirit. Don't you have to have Christmas spirit to have Christmas or else it's not really Christmas?

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Again, not sure what you mean...A lightning strike kills a boy walking home from school.....just bad luck, wrong place and wrong time...nothing more than that

And yet the various forces of causation, including human agency/choice/will intersected with natural causation outside of human control to effectuate the situation. So there were both spirits and non-human actions involved in generating the situation as a whole and its outcome.

What you're calling 'bad luck, wrong place and wrong time, was a direct hit for the spirit of death, which required a lot of coordinated actions, including the boy deciding to walk home during a lightning storm, to walk in an area where the lightning would strike him and not a tree, the people who built the corridor in a way that would make pedestrians the tallest lightning rods in the otherwise-cleared area, etc. All-in-all it was not just the 'angel of lightning/death' attacking the boy, it was also all the human actions that set him him up, like in Jurassic Park when everything gets set up for the perfect storm where the people get eaten by the dinosaurs.

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and yes, it is possible we are just biological systems, but I am not making that assertion. I think my assertion is God watches and doesn't act to violate his own laws that He set up because of prayer

Well, you could also say that we just watch what our mind and hands do and what our mouths say, and experience what our hearts feel, etc. God can perform miracles without ever violating the laws of causation, but we have the choice of whether to recognize them as miracles or chalk them off as lucky coincidences. Belief is a choice; if you don't believe, you don't see all the miracles that are going on all the time. You still reap the fruits of those miracles, and also the negative fruit of various curses; but you just don't see them as such because you've tuned your mind to a different kind of awareness.

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well, we've gone down a lot of different tangents that I wasn't intending...This all started with my wife taking me off to various denominations of churches and so many of them have prayer requests...John has leukemia; Mary's going to have a baby next month, Luke died and his widow is distraught, etc etc etc.......Do all these different denominations think group prayer is going to cure John's leukemia or help Mary have a healthy birth because God hears and intervenes ? Or s this just a bill of goods that has been sold to the flock.....I think I need to seek a theologian who can tell me what the Bible says about this......(.note, I don't oppose sharing burdens with a community for help and emotional support but I really question the achieving that end through the vehicle of 'prayer' to God)

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@shug23,

Prayer is a method of confronting ONESELF.

Have a Lovely Day

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@shug23,

shug23 wrote:

well, we've gone down a lot of different tangents that I wasn't intending...This all started with my wife taking me off to various denominations of churches and so many of them have prayer requests...John has leukemia; Mary's going to have a baby next month, Luke died and his widow is distraught, etc etc etc.......Do all these different denominations think group prayer is going to cure John's leukemia or help Mary have a healthy birth because God hears and intervenes ? Or s this just a bill of goods that has been sold to the flock.....I think I need to seek a theologian who can tell me what the Bible says about this......(.note, I don't oppose sharing burdens with a community for help and emotional support but I really question the achieving that end through the vehicle of 'prayer' to God)

Those prayer requests are just people putting information out about problems that are going to be solved one way or the other by God, through a combination of human efforts and things that happen beyond human control. By putting out those prayer notices, they are bringing the problems to light/awareness, and they believe that bringing things to light/awareness is a way of putting effort into cultivating goodness by whatever means it happens.

Remember in Genesis it says, "God saw that the light was good." There is a connection between physical light and the awareness of consciousness.

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value of prayer

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