Ridiculing the Ridiculous: Conspiracy theories that aren't worth responding to in other threads.

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

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Why don't you just explain how it is anti-Semitic to blame Jews for things instead of ridiculing people for questioning a social phenomenon
So, by that statement you could believe that the Jews are responsible for Covid-19 . Therefore you think the OP had merit??

Can you read? I said he should just explain how it is anti-Semitic to blame Jews (collectively) for things. I'm telling him instead of just slamming people for thinking critically by calling them 'conspiracy theorists,' he should explain why conspiracy theories should focus on Jews or any other ethnicity as a group. Everyone has ethnicity but that doesn't mean that everything that happens is attributable to all the people who have that same ethnicity.

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Therefore, I believe that its YOUR responsibility to explain why (and how) because I sure as hell dont and I think neither does max.
In a debate doesnt the affirmativ start ?? That woul be you in this case.

I'm just interested in legitimate critical thinking, even when it generates false hypotheses; provided it's not geared toward harassing people because of their ethnicity or other categorical identifications.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are being ridiculous because.

1. Just because there may be a CRISPR virus in the future doesn't mean anything. There maybe intelligent monkey/human hybrids in the future too. There is no evidence that the corona virus was man-made, and in fact experts tell us that looking at the genetics of the virus that this is virtually impossible.

And yet you don't know enough about it to verify such claims. Don't you think that if there was such a conspiracy, there would be 'scientists' claiming that the virus wasn't engineered, i.e. the same way there were 'doctors' claiming that smoking was harmless or even healthy to support the tobacco industry?

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2. Yes, it is antisemitic to "blame Jews for things". That meets the definition of antisemitism.

That's why I said to explain that to people instead of focusing on ridiculing them for 'conspiracy theory.' Conspiracy theory is bad when its anti-Semitic or otherwise racist/sexist/classist/etc.; not because it is conspiracy theory.

Corporatism is dominant economic culture and corporations are by definition networks of individuals who coordinate their actions to achieve collective/organization goals while maintaining information firewalls and PR facades. Conspiracy is standard practice, so why deny that it's a real possibility in almost anything that happens involving collective/coordinated human actions?

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3. No it is not antisemitic to make fun of ridiculous things people say on the internet. In fact, that has nothing to do with the definition of antisemitism.

That's a strawman. I never said that. But now that you mention it, ridicule is a basic component of anti-Semitism or any other form of scapegoating.

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4. Your theory is that some supervillain is holding the vaccine to make as much money as possible. You provide no evidence that such a magical vaccine exists, you just say it could exist. And the "frickin sharks with laser beams on their heads" guarding said supervillain could also exist.

My thought process works like this:
1) If someone developed a vaccine and wanted to make it publicly available as quickly as possible, who would benefit from preventing them from doing so and how?
2) If vaccine developments are happening within corporate settings, what are the chances that managers control the various aspects of the process and that their information and control is limited by higher-ups who answer to who knows whom?

Face it. It is entirely possible for bad people to control the development and public release of a vaccine in order to make money, if just by selling it privately on the black market before it is publicly available.

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5. Your use of the word "obvious" for a crazy, unsupported conspiracy theory is wonderfully funny.

Only because you're twisting it to mean that I think it's obvious the conspiracy is true, and not what I really mean, which is that it's obvious that CRISPR can and surely eventually will be used to engineer diseases for biological weaponry and/or profit.

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6. What "real possibilities" have you ruled out. Are we still talking about the extraterrestrial lizard people living under the North Pole.

You can't rule anything out. All you can do is provide reasons why things are impossible or unlikely.

What you do with your damned sarcasm is make up ridiculously unlikely analogies to subjectively imply that things I or someone else says are equally unlikely without actually discussing what makes things more or less likely.

What you do is basically anti-reasoning.

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@livinglava,

1. There are some things that are almost certainly true, or probably true.

2. There are some things that are possibly true to a reasonable person. Reasonable people can disagree.

3. There are some things that are completely ridiculous (although technically possible).

4. And some of the things that are completely ridiculous are offensive (e.g. for example the antisemitic conspiracies suggesting a Jewish plot against the world are promoting racist and dangerous stereotypes).

Many of the things you are arguing are completely ridiculous. You are not just suggesting one or two evil scientists have initiated their evil scheme of world domination.

You are suggesting that every reputable geneticist on the planet is in on this plot to hide the fact that this a man made virus. They are all saying, after studying the genetic code, that there is it highly unlikely (beyond a reasonable doubt) that this is a man made virus.

This theory is ridiculous because it makes no sense. The amount of effort it would take to stifle all of the geneticists around the world, without one of them leaking the plot, is on the level of extraterrestrial lizard-people controlling the world. Can I prove to you that there are no lizard people under the North Pole? No. Even if we went to go look you could decide they have stealth technology or mind control powers that keep them hidden. That doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous.

By the way, the reason that it is called "critical" thinking is that you are supposed to question your ridiculous ideas before you decide to promote them. It would be a good thing if you could realize yourself how crazy your ideas are.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1. There are some things that are almost certainly true, or probably true.

There are reasons to suggest something is true or not. You present the reasons you have to present and the 'almost certainly' or 'probably' is grounded in those reasons. You saying that something is 'almost certainly' or 'probably' true without explanation is worthless.

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2. There are some things that are possibly true to a reasonable person. Reasonable people can disagree.

'Reasonable' isn't a status. Reasoning is a process of providing and evaluating reasons. The evaluation process is also done by reasoning. The moment you shift gears to evaluating reasons without explaining your reasons, you have become unreasonable.

e.g. "just because" or "because experts say so," is not reasoning, it's groundless attribution to authority.

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3. There are some things that are completely ridiculous (although technically possible).

Maybe, but then you should explain why and not use analogies like, "and maybe lizard people live underground in Antarctica." That's faulty reasoning.

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4. And some of the things that are completely ridiculous are offensive (e.g. for example the antisemitic conspiracies suggesting a Jewish plot against the world are promoting racist and dangerous stereotypes).

You have to distinguish the anti-Semitic part from the conspiracy part. Otherwise you are 'playing the anti-Semitic card" in lieu of actually explaining why a theory is implausible. Yes, you should explain why something is anti-Semitic and call people on it, but maybe someone really thinks there's a conspiracy driven by finance without intending it to harass Jews generally. I realize that by saying that, it's like I'm giving anti-Semites an excuse to covertly spread anti-Semitism and then claim it's not meant as anti-Semitism, but it's also true that everyone has ethnicity so anything could be taken as an ethnic attack, even if it's not meant that way; e.g. Trump could say that all anti-Trumpism is anti-Americanism but the fact is that only some anti-Trumpism is a byproduct of anti-Americanism while other people who love American just don't like Trump. Both phenomena exist, but they are not the same.

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Many of the things you are arguing are completely ridiculous. You are not just suggesting one or two evil scientists have initiated their evil scheme of world domination.

Claiming they are ridiculous implies that you have some basis for evaluating how likely or unlikely conspiracy is, but you simply don't have that except as a subjective 'feeling' based on the fact that conspiracy theory is culturally taboo.

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You are suggesting that every reputable geneticist on the planet is in on this plot to hide the fact that this a man made virus. They are all saying, after studying the genetic code, that there is it highly unlikely (beyond a reasonable doubt) that this is a man made virus.

Put it this way: what reputable geneticist is going to come out and be the first to suggest that the virus could be engineered, even if they think so? Making such a claim would make them a target of whoever was behind the engineering. Don't you think fear motivates people?

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This theory is ridiculous because it makes no sense. The amount of effort it would take to stifle all of the geneticists around the world, without one of them leaking the plot, is on the level of extraterrestrial lizard-people controlling the world. Can I prove to you that there are no lizard people under the North Pole? No. Even if we went to go look you could decide they have stealth technology or mind control powers that keep them hidden. That doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous.

For one thing, if someone was going to engineer an artificial virus, they would put effort into making it look natural so it would escape scrutiny, as they would know independent geneticists would be studying it.

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By the way, the reason that it is called "critical" thinking is that you are supposed to question your ridiculous ideas before you decide to promote them. It would be a good thing if you could realize yourself how crazy your ideas are.

You didn't even speak to the more likely conspiracy, which is that all the media hype around the virus is an exaggeration for the sake of achieving political-economic effects.

Did you read the other thread where Walter Hintler posted that COVID19 wasn't even flagged as a major threat by some governmental authority (I forget which one now)? How does it make sense that some governments would be declaring quarantines and social-distancing and building emergency hospitals and morgues while other governments are evaluating the disease as less than a top threat?

What do you say about that kind of inconsistency? Is there that much room for interpretation in the science for top governmental medical authorities?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

First of all, I am a professional engineer. If I am the first engineer to see a problem, be it a fraud or a risk everyone else is overlooking... you better believe I am going public. Most engineers and scientists would do the same. In fact, I was indirectly related to the team that uncovered a bug in floating point math that impacted a large number of Microsoft chips. Microsoft at the time was one of the most powerful computer companies in the world. Once it went public, engineers all rushed to confirm the findings.

If I understand your crazy conspiracy theory, it involves a few evil genetic engineers; a small number compared to the very large scientific community. That would mean that a good engineer who spotted this evil plot would have no reason to keep it a secret.

Correct me if I am wrong... are you sensing a larger international conspiracy?

Explain to me how this isn't completely ridiculous.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

First of all, I am a professional engineer. If I am the first engineer to see a problem, be it a fraud or a risk everyone else is overlooking... you better believe I am going public. Most engineers and scientists would do the same. In fact, I was indirectly related to the team that uncovered a bug in floating point math that impacted a large number of Microsoft chips. Microsoft at the time was one of the most powerful computer companies in the world. Once it went public, engineers all rushed to confirm the findings.

If I understand your crazy conspiracy theory, it involves a few evil genetic engineers; a small number compared to the very large scientific community. That would mean that a good engineer who spotted this evil plot would have no reason to keep it a secret.

Correct me if I am wrong... are you sensing a larger international conspiracy?

Explain to me how this isn't completely ridiculous.

What I am trying to tell you is that I don't have a specific conspiracy theory but I do recognize the potential for virus engineering as a form of terrorism and/or biological weaponry.

If one or more individuals working for a government or terrorist network would design and release a virus, they would do so in a way that camouflaged the virus to look natural and release it in a way that would draw blame toward a scapegoat, like zoonotic transmission.

In other words, they would put a lot of effort into getting it to pass scrutiny of experts, just as a counterfeiter puts effort into their fake bills going undetected, or as a terrorist poses as a tourist or sports fan or whatever and designs a weapon that can pass metal detectors, body scans, etc.

All I am really saying is that, unlike you, I don't dismiss conspiracy theory uncritically. I just think critically about what I hear or what the uncritical part of my own mind comes up with. Critical thinking is a dialogue, whether it's between different people or just a process of critical questioning within your own mind.

What you do is jump the gun to rejecting things because you think it will buy you brownie points with people who value ridicule over explanation and reasoning in discussion. And because you are controlled by fear of ridicule, you censor your mind from exploring thoughts that you anticipate will be ridiculed as 'conspiracy theories' by others.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

At what point do you accept the facts and admit that your theory is ridiculous? Have you ever done this? That is the part of critical thinking that you seem to be missing.

The experts, the people actually do genetic engineering have looked carefully at the genetics of this virus. They say that this doesn't show any signs of genetic engineering and is the type of virus that you would expect to evolve naturally.

Sure, you can say that maybe the evil scientist used stealth technology to hide his genetic engineering. But this is no less crazy than the claim the fact we can't see extra-terrestrial lizard people proves that they exist because they could have super-alien stealth rays.

You are being silly.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

At what point do you accept the facts and admit that your theory is ridiculous? Have you ever done this? That is the part of critical thinking that you seem to be missing.

Which 'facts' are you referring to, exactly?

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The experts, the people actually do genetic engineering have looked carefully at the genetics of this virus. They say that this doesn't show any signs of genetic engineering and is the type of virus that you would expect to evolve naturally.

First, I haven't read anything on this subject. Second, if engineers can design a virus that looks natural, it would pass as natural.

It's the same as if someone can make counterfeit bills that pass as real bills.

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Sure, you can say that maybe the evil scientist used stealth technology to hide his genetic engineering. But this is no less crazy than the claim the fact we can't see extra-terrestrial lizard people proves that they exist because they could have super-alien stealth rays.

Here you're utterly wrong, like if you ridiculed that there are 'evil printers' who 'use stealth technology' to make fake bills that can pass various kinds of tests for counterfeiting.

Obviously if there are printers who can make passable fake bills and are evil enough to do so, it is more likely than "E.T. lizard people," etc.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

You haven't done anything to address my ET lizard people theory (which is just as plausible as your evil scientist theory).

The experts in making counterfeit proof bills also know how to make counterfeit bills. They are the ones who can tell you if the any given bills can be counterfeit or not. Most currency experts are good honest people like the rest of us.

People who are experts in the field know more than you do. When something that experts think is ridiculous sounds personally plausible to you, the experts are right and you are being ridiculous.

You have an incredibly overblown view of your own intelligence. Even when you have zero real knowledge of a subject, you still think you understand more than people who are legitimate experts.

That is why you are silly.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You haven't done anything to address my ET lizard people theory (which is just as plausible as your evil scientist theory).

If you're going to post sarcastic drivel that undermines the possibility for reason-based discussion, then just don't. Ridicule involving ET lizard people is a waste of discussion.

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The experts in making counterfeit proof bills also know how to make counterfeit bills. They are the ones who can tell you if the any given bills can be counterfeit or not. Most currency experts are good honest people like the rest of us.

The point was that engineered viruses can be camouflaged to look natural the same way counterfeit bills can.

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People who are experts in the field know more than you do. When something that experts think is ridiculous sounds personally plausible to you, the experts are right and you are being ridiculous.

Everytime you say this same tired line about "there are people who know more than you," it does nothing for discussion. You could post it as a response to every single post in any thread and it would add nothing to any discussion.

There are people who are experts in expertise who know more than you about it, so you are being ridiculous by making comments about expertise that you know practically nothing about.

See how pointless that is?

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You have an incredibly overblown view of your own intelligence. Even when you have zero real knowledge of a subject, you still think you understand more than people who are legitimate experts.

That is why you are silly.

Your insults are an insult to intelligent people who deserve to read better in an insult. Try harder next time.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

There is a difference between expertise and intelligent. The most intelligent person in the world is lost if they don't have the expertise. Generally intelligent people pick a specialty in which to excel, and they work and study hard to reach the top of their own field. These people listen to the experts when they want to understand a field they haven't studied.

You have no expertise in Physics or genetics. So you just make stuff up and then stick with it. You assume that although you have no expertise, that your ideas are just as good as the experts. And you never change your mind, even when a real expert points out the problems with your made up ideas.

One advantage of expertise is the ability to evaluate ideas... to use past knowledge and analytical skills to tell if an idea has merit. I have speculated on ideas on fields I don't have any expertise. When I meet a real expert in these fields, I might have fun telling them my ideas. I sure listen when they tell me if I have something or am misunderstanding the concept.

Any fool can have ideas. It takes intelligence to realize your own ideas are ridiculous.

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You will also notice that I don't ridicule all of your posts. I agree with some of your posts, particularly when it comes to certain political opinions. I only ridicule the posts that are ridiculous.

I react strongly then you post these conspiracy theories. They are truly ridiculous and sometimes offensive. They also tend to derail discussions on serious topics.

Critical thinking includes the ability to recognize your own ridiculous ideas as ridiculous.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There is a difference between expertise and intelligent. The most intelligent person in the world is lost if they don't have the expertise. Generally intelligent people pick a specialty in which to excel, and they work and study hard to reach the top of their own field. These people listen to the experts when they want to understand a field they haven't studied.

You talk about 'experts,' but those are just people who insert themselves as 'keepers' of known facts. The real issue you're getting at is that intelligent people need information to work with, and the quality of the information they have to work with sets a condition for their intelligence to be effectively fruitful.

The greatest genius can perform stunning analyses on fake facts, but the results won't be worth much except as practice exercises for mental training. It's like when fans apply their intelligence to the fictional universes of elaborate narratives like Star Wars or Star Trek. They have great expertise and often-fascinating literary analyses, but their conclusions can't be factual because they're not based on facts.

Anyway, you're point is taken but it's repressive because you can only work with the information that you have to work with. If all you can do is worry about expertise, you aren't engaging in analytical reasoning and discussion of what you have to work with. You going on and on about expertise, etc. is just a distraction from getting to the real work of working with the information you have and trying to make the best of it.

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You have no expertise in Physics or genetics. So you just make stuff up and then stick with it. You assume that although you have no expertise, that your ideas are just as good as the experts. And you never change your mind, even when a real expert points out the problems with your made up ideas.

Nonsense. Physics and genetics are fundamentally understandable once you understand the basics of forces/mechanics and how DNA and cellular biology work.

All you ever do is discourage people from using the knowledge they have by talking about there being smarter people who know more. You are basically an anti-discussion nazi in a discussion forum.

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One advantage of expertise is the ability to evaluate ideas... to use past knowledge and analytical skills to tell if an idea has merit. I have speculated on ideas on fields I don't have any expertise. When I meet a real expert in these fields, I might have fun telling them my ideas. I sure listen when they tell me if I have something or am misunderstanding the concept.

Any fool can have ideas. It takes intelligence to realize your own ideas are ridiculous.

You can talk all day about the difference between experts and fools, but it just amounts to social classification of intelligence for the sake of ridiculing and thus discouraging people from using their minds.

Do you really want everyone to just stop using their minds and submit to whoever claims to be an expert? Are you really that authoritarian?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You will also notice that I don't ridicule all of your posts. I agree with some of your posts, particularly when it comes to certain political opinions. I only ridicule the posts that are ridiculous.

You are implying that I care about your judgments and ridicule. I just tolerate it when you go off on these tangents, while I am actually waiting for you and others to shift back into gear to engage in relevant discussion.

It's like when you are trying to teach students and they keep veering off into arguing about the subject matter being too difficult or that they don't care about education. It's a deviation from the straight and narrow path of disciplined reason-based discussion of the topics at hand instead of about the people doing the discussing.

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I react strongly then you post these conspiracy theories. They are truly ridiculous and sometimes offensive. They also tend to derail discussions on serious topics.

They may seem ridiculous and offensive within your narrow interpretation of them; but I have explained to you numerous times how you have to look beyond the reasons people take offense and/or flee into narrow-realism because they get stuck on the most superficial aspects of things.

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Critical thinking includes the ability to recognize your own ridiculous ideas as ridiculous.

That's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying that critical thinking enables the thinker to understand why they should stop thinking critically. It's a self-defeating statement.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I have seen the following crazy conspiracy theories around here.

- That Corona Virus was man-made using CRISPR.

- That Corona Virus doesn't exist in Russia (Because the Jewish Conspiracy doesn't exist in Russia).

- A Vaccine already exists that some international syndicate is withholding from humanity so they can profit from it.

I don't want to keep responding to these wacko posts that keep spamming other threads. So I am going to simply ridicule them here.

I can think of better ones.

That Corona Virus was created at KFC as a third option between original and extra crispy: Just ask for CRISPR.

A Vaccine already exists that Rupaul is withholding from humanity so she can profit from it.

- That Corona Virus doesn't exist in Russia (Because the Gays don't exist in Russia). It's a gay conspiracy ... if you need this one spelled out.

1 Reply

@tsarstepan,

Howd you like to have him as yer strait man?? Hed mis all the set up lines .

CRSPR Smile

0 Replies

Ridiculing the Ridiculous: Conspiracy theories that aren't worth responding to in other threads.

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