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POSSIBLE ANCIENT BOAT BUILDING SITE

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 01:46 pm
@farmerman,
Depends on the dog, or cat, they're like people, most of them I like but there's a few. I like the sea, don't really have much choice living on an island, but I do like cities with a coast line like Amsterdam and Copenhagen. Having said that, I didn't see much of the coast when I went to Italy though, Pisa was the nearest we got to the Med. So it's not ultra important, I like a nice City break.

The next place I want to go to is Marrakech, and that's up in the mountains.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 02:04 pm
@izzythepush,
worked in Morocco , it was ok but I got stuck by the client and it took forever to get paid . It cowt me over 20% of our invoices to hire an agent and an "intermediary" to eventually get us paid. I now know that, much of the Muslim world is kinda like China when it comes to doing business. When you negotiate a contract for service Thats just the beginning.

The geology was fascinating . I scored some really nice gem minerls that we had cut and made into stuff for wives and "Gummara" ( i think thats correct)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 02:07 pm
@Setanta,
Was I reading correctly in that it said these boats were over 16 strakes a beam???
Jexus, we got oyter boats, "log canoes that only use 7 and you have a crew of 5 guys who live and cook and sleep on board for a week at a time.
Did they talk about how wide the boards were??
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 07:17 pm
@farmerman,
The strakes were made by felling a tall oak tree and then splitting out wedge-shaped sections. The width of the strakes would have been determined by the width of the oak trunk being split. Of course, the strakes overlapped, which is what clinker built means. As you indicated in an earlier post, the Norse were using this method for more than a thousand years for fishing boats and wherries. You also referred to global cooling (if I read you correctly) and the subsequent development of the knorrir and the longships. This is, of course, speculation, but I agree that the development of the later vessels probably resulted from the warming of the climate after roughly 500 CE. The Greek geographer and historian Strabo reports the account of a Greek merchant from Massilia (modern Marseilles) who had sailed to Bretannikē (Britain) to trade for tin (used in making bronze). The merchant then attempted to sail north looking for (walrus) ivory, but encounter what call brash ice at the northern end of what we call the Irish sea. This period of global cooling was very profound, and is usually considered to have lasted from approximately 500 BCE to 500 CE. Therefore, the Norse would have had no use for any large clinker-built vessels. That is what leads me (and quite a few academic historians) to assume that the knorrir and the longships were produced beginning the late 7th or early 8th century CE.

It is important to realize that the longships were not sea-worthy in the North Sea (known to the Romans as the German Ocean) or in the Atlantic. They were shallow with very little free board. Although they drew very little water, they'd have been fatally swamped in a North Sea storm, or just heavy weather in the Atlantic. My personal speculation is that the knorrir were a response to those conditions. In 985, Eirik Raude (Erik the Red) lead the colonizing expedition to what we call Greenland. The short saga, which is the oldest fragment of beginning of the Eirik Raudes saga, ends with the voyage of Bjarni Herjolfsson. Herjolf Bardisson was an Icelandic merchant who had retired from voyaging, and "kept shop" in Iceland while his son Bjarni did the trading voyages. He apparently left very explicit instructions for Bjarni when he, Herjolf, sailed to Greenland. Bjarni returned to Iceland, learned that his father had joined Eirik Reude's colonizing voyage, and kept his cargo, leaving from Bredhafjord, the point of departure of Eirik's expedition. He was hit by a heavy storm, and was drivne southwest for several days. When the storm passed, he kept the sea until the weather cleared. He then sailed northwest, when he sighted land. It is now accepted by historians that he had reached Newfoundland. He coasted (as mariners tended to do in those days) and resisted the pleas of his crew to land. He continued up the coast and then coasted north along the coast Labrador. When he reached what is now called Cape Chidley, and immediately turned east. Running before the constant westerlies, he made landfall at Cape Farewell, the southern most point of Greenland, in under three days. His father, Herjolf Bardisson, and claimed land there so that any merchants arriving at Greenland would reach is little settlement first.

The significance of all of that is that Bjarni's knorr swam in a heavy storm in the North Atlantic. This is something no longship could have survived. Almost all of the longships which have been found, and all those which have been found intact, have been ship burials. One of the most dramatic finds is not Norse, but Aglo-Saxon. At Sutton Hoo, near the coast of Suffolk (the South Folk of East Anglia) in 1939, several mounds were carefully excavated, revealing an extremely rich ship burial. The wood of the ship had rotted away, but the outline of the vessel was preserved in the said, along with iron nails and plates which held it together. The iron was another clue that it was from a very wealthy man. This burial dated from the early 7th century CE, and because of it, I speculate that longships came first, and the knorrir came later. Eirik Reude and Bjarni Herjolfsson could not have safely made the voyage to Greenland in longships. The Angles or Saxons who sailed to the Suffolk coast would mostlike have hugged the coast of what we call Holland and Belgium, until a man at the masthead could see the coast of Britain. Early the next morning, they would have made the run west to the coast of what became known as East Anglia. Below is an artist's rendering of the ship burial.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/410/cpsprodpb/AC2E/production/_92787044_capture.jpg

Tbe "tent" in the center is the burial chamber. Here is a link to the British Museum's Sutton Hoo page.[/url[]

Below is an image of how oak logs would have been split to provide the strakes:

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/pix/radial_splits.gif

Vikings were not a people, they were pirates. Eventually, the people of western Europe learned how to deal with them. At about the same time, the tall, straight oaks of Norway were pretty much exhausted. One of the best ways to stop a Viking attack was to create a plausible threat that you were going to burn their ships. That was what Odda, the Ealdorman of Dorset, did to defeat Ubbe Ragnarsson in 878. Odda and his "militia" and men at arms, occupied an old fort at Cynwit in Dorset. While Ubbe and his danes labored up the slope to the hill fort, some of Odda's men at arms began setting fire to their ships. Ubbe's "army" dissolved in panic, and Odda then attacked downhill. Ubbe was killed in the fighting, although Odda was badly wounded. But the "Viking" threat from the west was ended before King Alfred met Guthrum the Unlucky at the battle of "Ethandun," usually assumed to have taken place at Eddington.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 07:47 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
I take it back, Doggerland began disappearing about 8000 ybp and this article is about a site in much more recent times .


That's not true. The site was dated to 8000 ybp, which would have been about the time that Doggerland was inundated, The Dogger bank has long been known as a good fishing bank. It's about 60 miles east of the present English coast.

The period of 9000 ybp to 8000 ybp is the warmest climate of which we know. Climatologists all agree that the climate warmed so much that the Arctic Ocean was ice-free in the summer. Eventually, glaciers remaining from the last Ice Age melted enough to cause a dramatic irse inf sea level--such as that which buried Doggerland.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 07:56 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
which is what clinker means
Ahh, I just sorta ignored the term I thought it had to do with burning out the strakes. On the Chesapake, the log canoes , bugeyes and Skipjacks were built mostly on a "dead rise" (flat bottom) with "lapstrake" construction .same concept as clinker I suppose. The only different i that the deadrise boats maintained a waay less severe prow than the knorr because they insisted on using osage orange wood which requires a lot of planing becaue its so damned knarly. (It outlasts the Va and Md oak, cause They didnt have that denser stuff they had in Europe .
Orange turned the little bay craft into minie "icebreakers" because they had to be running all winter for oysters and clams and sometimes the Chesapeake froze along the shorelines

Good stuff, I put it up on my index drive , If this thread lasts a biit, Ill go hunt up the Price Book(its at my ol office and the guys have redecorated it, (ince I fully retired). The price book is great at looking a the various cultures that were named wrt specific artifacts and environmental conditions .

I was only mildly aware of the term about the people of the North , thats why I used "Viking" more as a verb, like "Im goin viking today". [/quote]
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 08:06 pm
The wooden warshops of Europe were built with white oak. The white oak was used in the United States, too, but scantlings as well as strakes for American warships were made from Southern Live Oak, Quercus virginiana. It not only tolerates water, it grows in wetlands. It is much denser than white oak, and it lasts longer in service in wooden vessels. It was so prized that English, French and Spanish warships used to haunt the southeast coast of the United States, hoping to have the opportunity to steal some.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 08:07 pm
Southern Live Oak
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jan, 2020 08:27 pm
@Setanta,
Yeah I know, (Accent on the SOUTHERN). Chesapeake was never hooked up by rails to anywhere but Philly (the eastern shore is on the wrong bank. So when they used all the remaining live oak found as far north as Virginia to make the FRIGATES, our Eastren Shore folks were stuck with Poplar and crap like that. When they first used Osage, it was like a dog send. In Delaware it was worse bcause while they had some cypress, it was used for growing tobacco seed)

Weve got some old mills with plans for Bungies that were 75% out of osage an some of these are still on the water. (Old Ironsides had to be rebuilt 3 times since it was launched)
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jan, 2020 07:00 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:


I love these trees.
They are amazing.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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