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Sat 24 Aug, 2019 06:38 am
Suppose you ask a group of people whether they believe the earth goes around the sun. Of course they would all say they do. If you then ask how they know, what would be different if the Earth went around the sun instead, the number of answers likely would be zero. People believe our picture of the solar system is true because experts have told them it is true.
But there is more to it than that. Most everybody learns bits and pieces of science even if they don't take an actual class. They know that science is based on certain principles, such that anything an expert tells them can be checked for validity. For example, we know that when a planet moves relative to a star, the angle of light changes depending on the relative speed, so anybody can verify that the Earth goes around the sun and not vice versa.
Scientists get so used to being accepted that they fall into some bad habits, pretending to know something when they don't. For example, a principle in science is that all knowledge is based on observations, so anything that has not been observed is not science. It is conjecture. That principle knocks out more than half of what we have been told about most scientific topics.
As late as the 1990s, anthropologists would not dig past the 9,000 year level because "authorities" had ordained that no humans existed in the Americas before that. Then Kennewick man was discovered, and he turned out to be 10,000 years old. So the authorities were forced to relax their ban. Suddenly evidence was found all over that humans were in the Americas going back tens of thousands of years. That exposes the conflict between authority and observation.
Dark matter was invented in 1932 by Ian Oort to fudge his data to agree with his theory. You can look that up at wikipedia.org or any scientific history reference. Edwin Hubble observed red shift in light from some galaxies but did not suggest a cause. Other astronomers assumed it was caused by doppler effect without considering other possible causes. Then they assumed that distance could be estimated from the same observation, and now almost everything we think we know about the universe is based on those two assumptions.
You can always spot the people who rely on authority: they defend their positions with personal insults instead of scientific principles.
@Jewels Vern,
There is no principle of science that says that all knowledge is based on observations. Evidence is based on measurement which is often done through direct observation. But knowledge takes advantage of inference and analysis and understanding of the evidence.
@Jewels Vern,
You are accepting the value of education... that is a good start to this discussion. The "principles" you are citing are things you could have learned in middle school. I am going to guess that like most people here, you have had a least a high school science education.
I am going to make an educated guess (based on your posts) that you haven't had any serious science at the college level. Correct me if I am wrong, but I would be very surprised if you have taken a class in Quantum Physics (which is key to understanding dark matter).
So you accept the science that you have studied up to a certain level. You have problems accepting the science at higher levels that you haven't studied. I think this makes sense.
The professional scientists you are attacking have PhDs. They have spent a considerable about more time studying then you have. This is why they have a different understanding than you do.
@maxdancona,
We get PhDs from the academic system. That is the outgrowth of Akademos, a grove near Athens sacred to the goddess of wisdom. Membership was by invitation only and members claimed ownership of all knowledge, by which they meant things they made up by their own powers of reasoning. Knowledge gained by experience was left to servants and tradesmen.
Bottom line: PhDs are priests in a pagan religion. That is why their first line of defense when observations challenge their theories is always personal insults and rejection.
FYI I was one of the engineers designing the satellite uplink system to put VH1 on the air. Before that I taught electronics in the Air Force. So I am not a dummy.
As for dark matter, anybody can look it up at wikipedia: It was invented in 1932 by Ian Oort specifically to fudge his data to agree with his theory. Your appeal to quantum physics (which is not normally capitalized) does not explain away the fact that dark matter is totally imaginary and was made up for a dishonest purpose.
@Jewels Vern,
Jewels Vern wrote:
We get PhDs from the academic system. That is the outgrowth of Akademos, a grove near Athens sacred to the goddess of wisdom.
Bottom line: PhDs are priests in a pagan religion.
This has to be the biggest pile of bollocks I've ever heard. We get the word economics from the Greek word for housekeeping, that doesn't mean all economists are housewives/husbands/spouses.
@maxdancona,
Quote: As late as the 1990s, anthropologists would not dig past the 9,000 year level because "authorities" had ordained that no humans existed in the Americas before that.
Boy,from what comic book did you get that???
@farmerman,
Are you responding to the wrong person? I never wrote that.
@maxdancona,
sorry, I cut from Vernes post but I was following yours. I was quoting Jewels post.
Now, however, Im talking to you with an wffort to clear up any misunderstandings
@farmerman,
JV doesn't give sources, he makes pronouncements. Just like the topic of this thread, which is really spooky and well weird. It makes me come to the following conclusion. This thread is about him, I think his subconscious is crying out for help.
I can't believe that Max, with his love of pat phrases hasn't spotted that. The one chance he gets to say 'I just love irony,' without looking like a muppet and he fluffs it.
Now that is ironic.
@izzythepush,
Just in case someone doesn't know what Izzy's last post is about...
https://able2know.org/topic/528228-1#post-6887448
Izzy is obsessed. He is following me thread to thread even when he agrees with me.
@izzythepush,
"JV doesn't give sources, he makes pronouncements."
I don't give sources because I give science. Most people on most forums can't understand science, that is why they wait for pronouncements from authorities. If they had lived in the days of Galileo, they would have totally agreed with the church.
@Jewels Vern,
So you have first hand knowledge from Galileo??
BTW, what did he know about paleoanthropology??
@Jewels Vern,
You are talking about Newton and Galileo as if they are common uneducated folks. This is dead wrong.
Both Newton and Galileo were extremely well educated... they were the PhDs of the time. Galileo studied at the University of Pisa and after finishing his studies he worked as a profesor. He was appointed chair of mathematics. He was and academic of academics. Galileo also had access to a very well made telescope something that very few people had. Most people had to trust him on what he saw.
If your point is that education has no value in understanding science... you are choosing very poor examples.
@farmerman,
It has reached a point where we can only exchange insults, and I don't want to do that, so please don't participate in my thread any more. If you do, I will politely ignore you.
@maxdancona,
I have not mentioned Newton. Galileo was arrested for contradicting the church. What are you talking about?
God I trust from everyone else I require proof.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/scientific+fact
scientific fact
Also found in: Thesaurus, Wikipedia.
Related to scientific fact: Scientific law
Noun 1. scientific fact - an observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (although its truth is never final)
@Jewels Vern,
you will ignore me only because you have nothing with which to debate me. Your knowledge about the very subject you opine herein is nonexistent. Your BS assertions need to b challenged, not merely ignored.
I dont need you to argue my facts. I need you to try to unerstand why youre totally incorrect.
@Jewels Vern,
Jewels Vern wrote:
I don't give sources because I give science.
Science you've just pulled out of your arse, real science is published, there are articles, things to verify and check.
What you've got is a load of old bollocks.
@longly,
When the proof exists, but you don't have the education or resources to understand it, then you are screwed.
That is the problem we are discussing here.
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