In Defense of Human Beings: People are amazing and the world isn't about to end.

@hightor,

Ruth lives in my house. I provide her all of the food she needs. I give her a warm comfortable place to sleep. Her environment is free from predators. She gets regular medical care. I even clean up her poop (the opposite of "fouling her environment").

Nature can be cruel to wildlife. If there is a flood or a fire, animals die. If an animal falls, or gets injured in a fight to the point they can't fend for themselves, they often either starve to death or become an easy target of a predator. Animals in the wild get diseases, or face injuries without any medical care. Ruth doesn't face any of that.

Ruth expresses her gratitude, when I come home she jumps up and down to show she is excited to see me, and she is always quick to play our favorite games, or she will curl up next to me while I work.

Sure Ruth was bred to live with humans (and I happen to be a human). There is no question that she makes my life better.

But all an all I would say that she has it pretty good living with me.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

This thread is a response to the exaggerated rhetoric on other threads. These claims that "human civilization is about to end" or "humans never do anything to help other species" are absurd.

There are reasonable concerns... sure, human caused climate change is real and it is a serious problem that we need to address. Sure, there are continuing challenges of poverty and injustice.

You can have a progressive view that include a positive view of humanity. You can support a strong response to the threat of climate change, and work to provide a better world for humans and animals.

At the same time you can keep a positive respectful, hopeful view of the human race.

Can someone please assure me that politically progressive beliefs can co-exist with a positive view of humanity?

3 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Sure Ruth was bred to live with humans (and I happen to be a human). There is no question that she makes my life better.

But all an all I would say that she has it pretty good living with me.

I don't doubt that that is the case. Nor have I said anything which would suggest that I doubt that that is the case. Intentional domestication by selective breeding isn't necessarily bad for animals, but it's always good for human beings.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

These claims that "human civilization is about to end"...

Who made that claim? An accurate assessment of negative trends may help to raise an alarm but who's making the claim that civilization is about to end. An even stupider claim is sometimes heard, that people are claiming that the "world" is about to end. Pretty anthropocentriccentric — rocks made up the world long before living organisms developed.

Quote:

or "humans never do anything to help other species" are absurd.

As far as "doing nothing to help other species" is concerned, that isn't absurd at all. We help other species when we feel ourselves negatively affected by their suffering, diminishing numbers, or extinction. We help them because we recognize them as collateral damage in the human war on nature. When you hear one group of humans agitating to protect a particular species or natural ecosystem you can bet it's because another group of humans is actively engaged in its exploitation or destruction.

Quote:

At the same time you can keep a positive respectful, hopeful view of the human race.

Why is that necessary?

Quote:

Can someone please assure me that politically progressive beliefs can co-exist with a positive view of humanity?

There are plenty of speciocentric progressives — why advocate for social justice and economic democracy if you think humans are doomed? Why label yourself a "humanist" if the word has a negative connotation? What if your idea of a "positive view of humanity" involves us working to reduce our numbers and our ecological footprint on the planet?

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

a phrase, no matter how untrue, if ud enough, becomes part of your bag of "facts".

Im getting the feeling that, in order to make you happy, Id have to admit that we should just discount those 3 million kids that die each year from starvation and the total number of 800 MILLION people suffering from lack of food.

.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

I think your assertion that folks here have said that"civilization is about to end:, is a result of your inability to unerstand that symbolistic language is just that.

Hving said that, we are a species seemingly intent on causing the extinction of many other species such that , science has given this time we live in as the "Anthropocene" and many ecologists have already declared that, based upon the numbers of species that weve already assisted in removing from the planet, we are in the midst of the "6th extinction"

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

a phrase, no matter how untrue, if ud enough, becomes part of your bag of "facts".

Im getting the feeling that, in order to make you happy, Id have to admit that we should just discount those 3 million kids that die each year from starvation and the total number of 800 MILLION people suffering from lack of food.

This is a ideological argument.... both political sides play this trick.

Conservatives will list people who have been killed by illegal immigrants... and they will use this as "proof" that immigrants are criminals. I bet you can tell me why this is a logical fallacy when political conservatives do it.

Of course every person killed by an illegal immigrant is a tragedy. However when you compare the murder rate where the perpetrator is an illegal immigrant to the murder rate in general, you see that the murder rate of illegal immigrants is in fact quite low.

I am sure you understand perfectly well when this logical fallacy is being used by people outside of your ideological bubble. Hopefully you can see that you are doing the same thing.

It is a fact that our infant mortality rate now from starvation or any other cause is historically low.

0 Replies

hightor wrote:

anthropocentriccentric

Jeez, I hate it when that happens!

0 Replies

@farmerman,

What is your point?

Yes, humans have had, and continue to have, a massive effect on the environment. And yes human activity is leading to a massive extinction event. There is nothing to argue about here.

But what does this mean as far as the value of humanity?

- I assume you agree that humans should exist (I personally think the world would be a much worse place without the Bach Mass in B-minor).

- I assume we agree that humans should continue to be the only species on Earth to worry about conservation.

- I also assume we agree that getting rid of modern life (seeing as we are having this discussion from modern electrified houses on devices made of plastic derived from fossil fuels and rare earth metals mined from the ground).

You are making dramatic statements on the impact that human life has on the Earth. I agree with you. I think the doom and gloom philosophy that seem to be at the root of modern political liberal ideology is ridiculous.

I still believe that humanity has great value. Human cultures are rich and diverse and that human experience is full of wonder and beauty.

Are you fighting just to fight? Or do you disagree with me on some part of this.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

so you admit yer a Pollyanna instead of a realist?? OK, Im done with ya.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

so you admit yer a Pollyanna instead of a realist?? OK, Im done with ya.

All I get is a personal attack?

I really wish you had a point to make.

0 Replies

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Im getting the feeling that, in order to make you happy, Id have to admit that we should just discount those 3 million kids that die each year from starvation and the total number of 800 MILLION people suffering from lack of food./quote]

What about all those aborted children? Surely they deserve the chance of dying from starvation.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Izzy, If you wish to insert additional inanity to couple with max's please separate me from your dumass attempt at humor (I hope it was humor) and dont mak it appear that I said that.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

I'm sorry for mucking up the quotation buttons.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Is it just me or is max "all grapes and no wine"?

1 Reply

@farmerman,

He's all something, that's for sure.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I jut noted his sig line. We have another Oralloy maybe. At lest max doesnt just repeat the ame **** over an over. he just tries to chnage his lines surreptitiously

0 Replies

Farmerman, you are making me sad. You used to be far more reasonable. You have always been on the left side, but you refrained from personal attacks and would be open minded to other perspectives. Now you are jumping into bed with Izzy (the biggest ideological bully on Able2know).

The question still is whether anyone on the left can point to a scientific fact that you accept even though it doesn't fit the ideological narrative.

So far, the only answer has been personal attacks and name calling, which is the point I am making by this thread.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

The question still is whether anyone on the left can point to a scientific fact that you accept even though it doesn't fit the ideological narrative.

This "left" v "right" science is something I find interesting but invalid if you have creds in the area of investigation.
as a student of earth history I can accept folks questioning human assist when the earth has a history of severe climate change. HOWEVER, the evidence does support a condition of warming when past pre "massive emissions" age data evidenced a coming cooling phase.

Like I mentioned about Charles Koch, hes a"global warming with human assist" person, yet he openly supports Climate Denial organizations. does that chink yer thinking??

Another area is Natural Evolution denial, which, to me, is a religious belief, not political. .
I see some of both the left an the right supporting creationist or more correctly Intelligent Design beliefs.

I think you hould go into another room, get a cuppa hot chocolate (or whatever beverage of choice) and rethink some of your assertions about science and seek out their actual bases of existence.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Whether I have "creds" or not is irrelevant. To really evaluate the complete scientific evidence on issues like global climate change, or even evolution, requires a level of scientific expertise that most people (including me) don't have.

If the scientific experts at IPCC published a consensus report that changed the global climate change estimates and reversed course based on a scientific consensus with research data... I would change my mind on global warming. Wouldn't you?

I believe in global warming because that is the scientific consensus. I haven't done any of my own research on the matter, nor have I even carefully poured over the data in the published papers.

I do not base my willingness to accept scientific findings whether or not it fits one political ideology or another. If any finding is supported by the major scientific institutions based on well-designed research supported by most scientists... I will accept it.

The particular political ideology I am responding to on this thread is that humans beings are barbaric and the world is doomed. Of course this is a statement of opinion, not fact.

But the facts are being twisted to support this narrative. I am questioning both the narrative, and the dubious claims being made to support it.

0 Replies

In Defense of Human Beings: People are amazing and the world isn't about to end.

Quick Links

My Account

able2know