Social Darwinism, Student Debt, and My Problem with Conservatives

There was an interesting article recently on incomes for doctors vs plumbers. Many say that doctors end up with huge debt after they graduate from medical college, and that plumbers can learn their trade by learning from trade school or their boss at much lesser cost. That's a false analogy. One of the highest paid profession in this country are doctors. They end up with more wealth after working similar number of years. Average physician salary: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary Job Average MinMax
Family Physician / Doctor $180,464
$100K$247K
Physician / Doctor, Internal Medicine $192,503
$99K$273K
Physician / Doctor, General Practice $142,044
$60K$231K
Average plumber salary: Average Plumber Pay vs. Other Best Jobs
Plumbers earned an average salary of $57,070 in 2017. Comparable jobs earned the following average salary in 2017: Electricians made $57,910, Carpenters made $49,630, Insulation Contractors made $45,090, and Construction Workers made $38,890.
Plumber Salary Information | US News Best Jobs - US News Money
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary

And they probably paid back what they borrowed.

Average Medical School Debt in 2017
Sarah Kessler

Last Updated: May 9, 2019

You might make the significant decision to attend medical school for a variety of reasons. Perhaps you’re passionate about helping people. Maybe you’re most interested in the academic acclaim or financial security the medical field has to offer. But no matter what the driving factor is behind your decision to attend medical school, there’s one thing you’re (probably) going to have to contend with: student debt. The best way you can prepare for this almost inevitable, often monolithic, obstacle is by learning about the average medical school debt, and by tackling this number in practical terms, well ahead of time.

Average Medical School Debt Creeps Higher
The most recent statistics by the American Medical Student Association estimate that over 86% of graduates in the medical field carry educational debt. Compare that with the overall 70% of all graduates who carry debt, and you’ll notice immediately that medical school is one of the heavy hitters in the debt department. To make matters worse, the debt burden for medical students seems to grow exponentially with each year.

In 2011, the average medical student debt was $173,000, with the same number, 86%, of graduates carrying debt. The average medical school debt rose to $178,000 in 2012, and by 2016, the average medical school debt was up to $190,000, with about 25% of graduates carrying debts higher than $200,000. While there are no official stats for the average medical school debt for 2017, the average is expected to be even higher.

The Debt Divide
While the average medical school debt is a good place to start if you’re considering entering medical school in the next several years, be careful with how much you base your plan on these figures. The average debt number represents just that: the average, but medical student debt has an especially large range compared to other degree programs. Some students graduate with $330,000 in debt, while others graduate with zero debt at all.

According to a study by STAT, the average student medical debt burden is rising with each year, while the percentage of students carrying debt is decreasing. In other words, medical student debt is falling heavier on some students, while an increasing number of students face zero debt at all upon graduating medical school. This student debt divide reflects today’s income gap, resulting in students from wealthy families entering the medical field without financial burden, while middle- and lower-class students face rising debt every year.

The Hidden Cost of Medical School
We tend to think of student debt as a single number that we are expected to pay off once the degree program ends. However, there is also another, often ignored, cost associated with attending medical school. Yes, the cost of medical school itself is high, but the opportunity cost of attending medical school can push that number even higher. This hidden cost of medical school is measured in years of your life, and the potential income you’ll forgo while you’re in school.

The average length of medical school is four to five years of pre-med, followed by another four years of medical school. Then, you’re looking at another three to seven years—depending on your specialty—of residency at a relatively lower salary than you can expect during the rest of your career. The average bachelor degree program takes only four years, after which the average graduate makes about $57,000 per year. When you take this into account, you’re losing an additional $57,000 per year, on top of your student debt, for every year you’re in school after the first four years. Depending on how much you’ll make during your residency—usually about $50,000 – $60,000—you could still be netting a yearly loss compared to your bachelor-degree-holding contemporaries.

If you’re considering attending medical school in the near future, make sure to take this hidden cost into account. While it won’t add to the real number you’re facing upon graduation, it does mean you’ll be starting your career about $228,000 behind in lifetime earnings.

Medical Student Debt and Demand
While the average medical school debt grows and grows, interestingly, so does the demand for new graduates. This is especially true in the practice of primary care. The correlation? As new medical school students graduate with higher and higher debt burdens, the likelihood that these new graduates will go into a field like family practice falls lower and lower. Degree-holders with overwhelming debt levels prefer higher-paying medical professions, such as certain high-paying specialist practices and surgical medicine.

Know Your Specialty
It’s unknown whether, overall, debt level influences students’ choice of specialty as much or more than other factors. However, if you’re concerned about student debt, it’s a great idea to compare medical graduate specialties and their relative debt burdens. For example, dermatology grads carried significantly lower levels of medical student debt in 2016 than did emergency medicine specialists. If you’re torn between these two specialties, the cost of earning each degree may just be the deciding factor you need.

Debt and the Decision to Attend Medical School
When all is said and done, the decision to attend medical school is likely more difficult for some than for others. For those who come from wealthy backgrounds, whose parents may be able to shoulder the entire burden—or most of the burden—of their medical school tuition and living expenses, the choice to attend medical school may be a no-brainer. You can attend medical school with no direct financial consequences, and come out with one of the highest-paid degrees in the country.

On the other hand, those who come from middle- or lower-class backgrounds have more to consider when it comes to applying to and attending medical school and whether the debt they will accumulate is too much. It isn’t impossible, but you’ll need to weigh the pros with the cons. For example, is it worth missing out on at least four years of potential income that you would have from a bachelor’s degree? Another question you might ask yourself is which specialty has the best income-to-debt ratio.

No matter what your background, the decision to attend medical school should be based on more than just financial factors. Whether you graduate with $300,000 in debt or no debt at all, those many years spent in pre-med, med school, and residency will have been a waste if you’re not passionate about what you do. In medicine more than any other field, money is just one consideration, while your overall happiness and satisfaction with your work are arguably far more important. If you decide that taking on the debt is worth it for you, just plan ahead and make sure you know ahead of time what’s the best plan to paying off your student loans fast.

I suppose that somewhere in all that, it tells us that doctors do, or do not pay their debts? That's why you posted it?

There is a big difference going into med school debt free when parents pay the tuition, rent, utilities and incidentals versus a low to mid income student that has to finance $330K of debt.

That's what you're not getting. The cost of borrowing falls on the segment of population that can least afford it.

100% true statement.

Are some of these people just being dumb and making a bad decision? Of course. But they're being told the whole time by the media, the schools, teachers, parents, family, etc that in order to be successful, they must get a degree. These are people who are listening to the messages around them, and then being chastised for following those messages.

I hate feminists, but I have to believe that there's some feminist out there who probably thought it was a good idea to get a degree in women's studies primarily because enough people were telling her it was a good idea, probably including teachers and guidance counselors. It's a dumb degree, but it's only slightly dumber than getting a degree in acting or philosophy, or something.

But even if these people made a mistake, do they deserve to have their entire future, their ability to buy a house, save for retirement, start a business, etc. ruined forever?

I did lots of dumb things when I was younger that I wouldn't do now. The people getting these worthless degrees aren't trying to get something for free, they're believing the lie that we've told them their whole lives and instructed them to do.

When my brother completed med school, he was in debt $8,000. After practicing for a few years, he went to Pacific Presbyterian Medical Center in San Francisco to learn surgery by laser for one year. He was the first Ophthalmologist in San Joaquin County in CA to provide eye surgery by laser. He later became a politician, and served two terms in the California State Legislature. He was also the Mayor of his town a few times, and also served on the City Council. His oldest daughter is also an Ophthalmologist. My sisters oldest is also a physician. He just completed spending two years in Thimphu, Bhutan, to train doctors there. Her oldest daughter is a Neurologist, and youngest daughter has a PhD in Chemistry. My brother is now helping his grandson attend dental school. We come from a very modest background, because our mother raised four children by herself. We survived on social welfare when young.

So, no reason for posting except on general principle. No idea why you made it in reply to me.

But doctors also make enough, in general, to pay back their debt. My point isn't about medical degrees per say. It's about the bullshit degrees without practical applications that can end up costing as much as an actual useful degree, but that carry none of the benefits.

These degrees are like the lemon cars being sold, but without any buyer protections in place.

Well, as long as you are talking about the relative value of degrees, or any degree at all, I pretty much agree. If someone wants to buy books, tuition, and living expenses for personal entertainment, that's fine with me. If they borrow money to do it, that's also fine. I just don't have much faith in people who don't feel an obligation to pay back money they have borrowed.

Warning! Never attend Trump u. I worked full time during most of my college years, but my wife let me attend without working in my senior year. I got involved with student government and other student activities, and really enjoyed my last year in college. I also earned a small stipend by tutoring students in Accounting 101. CSU Hayward was known for their Accounting majors, and I was offered four jobs before I even graduated. I took the job with Florsheim Shoe Company, because they offered an expense account, and travel throughout the seven Western States, and I would be my own boss; made my own schedule to audit each company store at least two times a year. After 3.5 years, they promoted me to Audit Manager with a hefty salary increase, but we had to move to Chicago. After three years in IL, we were ready to return home to family and friends, (better climate) so that's what we did. It turned out very well; was controller for two small companies, then graduated to doing small business consulting. The money was good, invested well, and retired early. Was able to travel to 128 countries. A BS in Accounting (with a minor in Philosophy) turned out well for me. No regrets.

That's why huge loans shouldn't be granted for nonsense degrees in the first place. The government is dangling a carrot in front of these adult children. A carrot with 'free' money wrapped around it.

The education system wasn't always the way it is now. The government didn't always guarantee loans. That's where the biggest problem started, because it used to be that only smarter people, and people with aptitudes towards specific jobs got college degrees.

Some jobs didn't even require a degree, like working in a newsroom for instance. But then the government started handing loans out to anybody, and then these industries started requiring degrees. Now days a BA is the equivalent to what a high school diploma used to be. Required, but pretty much useless.

Plus you've got the looming threat of automation and the ever tightening, highly specialized job market of the future barring down.