Aboration ban

In the abortion debate there are the two extremes that dominate the yelling back and forth.

1. Abortion should be a woman's choice without exception from conception until birth.
2. Abortion should be illegal from conception until birth.

Neither of these two extremes reflect the feelings of most Americans.

- Two thirds of Americans believe that there should be restrictions on abortion after 20 weeks. Many of these people consider themselves pro-choice.

- And a clear majority of Americans believe that there should be exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother including people who consider themselves pro-life.

- There are other issues. There are people who consider themselves pro-choice who believe parents should be notified when their children have a surgical procedure.

It is also interesting that this does not break down along gender lines. There are similar numbers of women as men who want restrictions on abortion.

If you listen to the debate (if you can call it a "debate" all you hear are the extremes. Most Americans, men and women alike, fall somewhere in the middle.

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

It's not sufficient to leave it up to individual women, because they can be easily biased in favor of terminating the pregnancy based on various personal and social issues besides the interests of the unborn fetus.

Oh.

So that's how it is.

You truly believe that women are not intelligent enough to have sovereignty over their own body so it must be regulated for their own "good."

It really is a sad day that people think women are still an inferior species.

I wished you just would have said that way before now. I just would not have not participated.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

livinglava wrote:
It's not sufficient to leave it up to individual women, because they can be easily biased in favor of terminating the pregnancy based on various personal and social issues besides the interests of the unborn fetus.

Oh.

So that's how it is.

You truly believe that women are not intelligent enough to have sovereignty over their own body so it must be regulated for their own "good."

I don't think anything different about women than I do about men. I think many of both are easily biased by personal and social interests besides those of the weakest and least-protected among them.

Quote:

It really is a sad day that people think women are still an inferior species.

It amazes me how people can turn anything into stereotyping. I wasn't stereotyping women. I was only talking about the fact that if you allow all women to freely choose whether or not to protect the fetus growing in them, many will choose not to.

Quote:

I wished you just would have said that way before now. I just would not have not participated.

I guess you just don't have it in you to look at the reality of how many people are biased and realize that if you put life into their hands, they will shirk the responsibility.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

I don't think anything different about women than I do about men. I think many of both are easily biased by personal and social interests besides those of the weakest and least-protected among them.

Well, I'm so glad I'm not one of THOSE.

livinglava wrote:

It amazes me how people can turn anything into stereotyping. I wasn't stereotyping women. I was only talking about the fact that if you allow all women to freely choose whether or not to protect the fetus growing in them, many will choose not to.

And that's none of your concern.

livinglava wrote:

I guess you just don't have it in you to look at the reality of how many people are biased and realize that if you put life into their hands, they will shirk the responsibility.

Hang out with a better crowd and they won't kick you when you're down. Well, maybe they'll kick YOU...

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

livinglava wrote:
I don't think anything different about women than I do about men. I think many of both are easily biased by personal and social interests besides those of the weakest and least-protected among them.

Well, I'm so glad I'm not one of THOSE.

Are you implying something with sarcasm here? Why can't you just communicate your point clearly and explicitly?

livinglava wrote:

It amazes me how people can turn anything into stereotyping. I wasn't stereotyping women. I was only talking about the fact that if you allow all women to freely choose whether or not to protect the fetus growing in them, many will choose not to.

And that's none of your concern. [/quote]
I used to be pro-choice. Many of the people who approached me about abortion were women who were angry about the pro-choice movement. And while that might be the case, it is sexist to say that pro-life women have more of a right to pursue their pro-life agenda than men. We were all fetuses once and we all have an interest in protecting life against petty, selfish people who abuse their personal sovereignty to mix up priorities and exploit sex in ways that are unethical and immoral.

livinglava wrote:

Hang out with a better crowd and they won't kick you when you're down. Well, maybe they'll kick YOU...

It's deplorable that you find me deplorable.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Although sarcasm is one of my gifted traits, I have absolutely no problem telling someone to **** off, so...

Again, your opinion is yours just as mine is for me. My body, my choice.

I have not now or at any time called you deplorable. Take lessons in reading comprehension, you need it.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

Although sarcasm is one of my gifted traits, I have absolutely no problem telling someone to **** off, so...

Again, your opinion is yours just as mine is for me. My body, my choice.

I have not now or at any time called you deplorable. Take lessons in reading comprehension, you need it.

You implied it.

If you can't discuss things using reason, don't reply to my posts.

You asserting "my body my choice" is something I could assume you or any other person devoid of reason would assert if they were in absolute defiance of any form of reasoning about the issue in question.

Defending sovereignty is the opposite of democracy, whether it's the sovereignty of a territory, group, or individual.

Many people are upset about legal abortion and they deserve respect. You or others responding to them with, "my body my choice,' shows indifference to their concern.

Imagine if your concern for migrants was met with, "my nation my choice." You would insist that there are human rights that trump national sovereignty, wouldn't you?

For you to assert that a pregnant woman's bodily sovereignty trumps any concerns anyone has about the fetus is absurd. If anti-abortion was such an inhumane political stance, why would so many of the people advocating it be female? Do you think they are all masochists or do they understand something about balancing the interests of an unborn baby against the interests of the woman whose body that baby is (temporarily) dependent on for its life?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Right back at ya. Reason doesn't seem to be your forte. Abandoning sexual activities for procreation only is not a serious answer yet you want to be taken seriously. Um, that's not going to happen if you really believe that. So, yeah, I'm going to make fun of it as much as possible. Either get over it or stop posting it.

If you call me not wanting your input about my body "defiant," well, I guess you'd better rate me as the most defiant person yet to disagree with your point of view.

Self sovereignty is the biggest freedom we all have. It's what this country is founded upon, the right to do and be, whoever you want. To call that opposite of democracy shows you have no idea what freedom meant to our governing forefathers. Read the Constitution if you forgot what it says.

Yes, I agree many people are upset that rights and freedoms are being legislated away from them. In order to get respect, it's best to show respect. Of course I show indifference to their view when their view is wrong. That's how it works. I'm not sure why you'd think that my right to get an abortion equals national sovereignty versus personal sovereignty is wrong, but yet again, reason isn't your forte so I take it in stride.

Oh, and...

My body, my choice.

2 Replies

@neptuneblue,

You're probably trying to reason with an INCEL, those guys are pissed off all the time. They're pissed when women refuse them (call them frigid or lesbians) they're pissed when women get pregnant (she tricked me, how do I know it's mine), they are distressed when she has the baby (****, now I have to support that child) and they are furious if women have an abortion (that grouping of cells is a human life, you retched murderer....what they really mean is 'how dare you refuse your womb to me'). It's pointless to discuss these issues with INCELs.

3 Replies

@glitterbag,

I agree, even though I have no idea what an INCEL is. Something pretty bad, I bet

1 Reply

@roger,

It means the involuntarily celibate....they gather on forums devoted to complain about how mean women are, how badly women treat them and mainly that they don't get the appropriate amount of close sweaty intimacy that they are entitled to have. I know it sounds strange to normal guys like you, but INCELs are not like normal guys..they are the whiners about everything...

It's important for me to say that practically all of the men I know are honourable, decent salt of the earth men. The INCEL's just stick out like sore thumbs and get too much attention.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

Involuntarily? That's just strange.

1 Reply

@roger,

No so much if you actually talk to one.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

They make sense?

1 Reply

@roger,

Oh hell no....hahahahahahaha

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@glitterbag,

This isn't supposed to be a man hating thread, is it?

The truth is that whether you support abortion rights or not doesn't have much to do with gender. Roughly equal numbers of women and men are pro-choice.

Most women are in favor of some restrictions on abortion, particularly in the later stage of a pregnancy.

0 Replies

@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

Right back at ya. Reason doesn't seem to be your forte. Abandoning sexual activities for procreation only is not a serious answer yet you want to be taken seriously. Um, that's not going to happen if you really believe that. So, yeah, I'm going to make fun of it as much as possible. Either get over it or stop posting it.

"Um, that's not going to happen" is not a reason-based claim. It's just a subjective statement. If you're going to say things like that, there's nothing to discuss. You're just asserting an opinion and insisting it's your sovereign prerogative because you happen to have a uterus.

Quote:

If you call me not wanting your input about my body "defiant," well, I guess you'd better rate me as the most defiant person yet to disagree with your point of view.

It's not just my input. As I told you, I was pro-choice for many years. I was dismissive of pro-life complaints about abortion as being anti-woman. It took a long time for me to realize that the women who were upset about abortion were not just 'crazed Christians,' as I thought of them. They were thinking women who were bothered by the right to abortion because they saw it as something abused as a form of birth control.

Quote:

Self sovereignty is the biggest freedom we all have. It's what this country is founded upon, the right to do and be, whoever you want. To call that opposite of democracy shows you have no idea what freedom meant to our governing forefathers. Read the Constitution if you forgot what it says.

Freedom can be abused to harm others and self. Fetuses are a strange category because they are simultaneously part of your self and an other that impinges on your self-sovereignty. Once the child is born, it is absolutely an other who limits your freedom as parents, and that's why people seek to abort before the baby reaches an age that it is entitled to protection and care.

No parent has full sovereignty over themselves and their families. That ended with the Roman Empire, and arguably even then you couldn't just kill your family without having a very good reason.

Quote:

Yes, I agree many people are upset that rights and freedoms are being legislated away from them. In order to get respect, it's best to show respect. Of course I show indifference to their view when their view is wrong. That's how it works. I'm not sure why you'd think that my right to get an abortion equals national sovereignty versus personal sovereignty is wrong, but yet again, reason isn't your forte so I take it in stride.

I think you're just biased because abortion and bodily sovereignty feels closer to home for you. I think it's the case with most Democrats/socialists that they don't mind redistribution and inflation because they think the rich will get taxed more than they will and they'll actually come out ahead. I think that if they had to pay extra taxes to benefit people poorer than them, and they didn't come out of the situation better off than without the taxes, they would oppose the taxes.

In other words, I think you're just biased by self-interest against considering the bigger picture.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

glitterbag wrote:

You're probably trying to reason with an INCEL, those guys are pissed off all the time. They're pissed when women refuse them (call them frigid or lesbians) they're pissed when women get pregnant (she tricked me, how do I know it's mine), they are distressed when she has the baby (****, now I have to support that child) and they are furious if women have an abortion (that grouping of cells is a human life, you retched murderer....what they really mean is 'how dare you refuse your womb to me'). It's pointless to discuss these issues with INCELs.

It sounds like these people are good candidates for Alyssa Milano's advice to go on sexual strike.

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

"Um, that's not going to happen" is not a reason-based claim. It's just a subjective statement. If you're going to say things like that, there's nothing to discuss. You're just asserting an opinion and insisting it's your sovereign prerogative because you happen to have a uterus.

I'm stating fact. People WILL have sex for enjoyment purposes and for you to deny that FACT makes your argument unreasonable.

livinglava wrote:

It's not just my input. As I told you, I was pro-choice for many years. I was dismissive of pro-life complaints about abortion as being anti-woman. It took a long time for me to realize that the women who were upset about abortion were not just 'crazed Christians,' as I thought of them. They were thinking women who were bothered by the right to abortion because they saw it as something abused as a form of birth control.

Every person on this planet has an opinion. That includes Christian women. When those opinions take precedence over my civil rights and liberties, I cease to dismissive and will come out fighting for basic human rights.

livinglava wrote:

Freedom can be abused to harm others and self. Fetuses are a strange category because they are simultaneously part of your self and an other that impinges on your self-sovereignty. Once the child is born, it is absolutely an other who limits your freedom as parents, and that's why people seek to abort before the baby reaches an age that it is entitled to protection and care.

Forced pregnancy absolutely is wrong. There are laws against it. I will fight to uphold the Rule of Law.

livinglava wrote:

No parent has full sovereignty over themselves and their families. That ended with the Roman Empire, and arguably even then you couldn't just kill your family without having a very good reason.

I have no idea where you're going with this. Again, reason isn't your forte so I'll let it go.

livinglava wrote:

I think you're just biased because abortion and bodily sovereignty feels closer to home for you. I think it's the case with most Democrats/socialists that they don't mind redistribution and inflation because they think the rich will get taxed more than they will and they'll actually come out ahead. I think that if they had to pay extra taxes to benefit people poorer than them, and they didn't come out of the situation better off than without the taxes, they would oppose the taxes.

This is another WTF?? moment. Just stop. It's not a Democratic/Republican thing or a man vs woman thing. Taxes? Where in the world do you dream this crap up from??

livinglava wrote:

In other words, I think you're just biased by self-interest against considering the bigger picture.

Maybe you should not think for the rest of us. Your opinions are whacked.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

I'm stating fact. People WILL have sex for enjoyment purposes and for you to deny that FACT makes your argument unreasonable.

And people WILL kill other people in robberies, but that's no reason to give up on policing robbery, murder, and other crimes.

The purpose of the law is to intervene where personal liberty fails to achieve a good and just society. Some people are concerned about injustice for the unborn, so that's where all this abortion strife is coming from.

If abortion had continued to lose popularity after Roe vs. Wade was on the books, I doubt we'd even be discussing it.

Quote:

Every person on this planet has an opinion. That includes Christian women. When those opinions take precedence over my civil rights and liberties, I cease to dismissive and will come out fighting for basic human rights.

In democracy, every person is not only entitled to an opinion but they are also entitled to make reasonable efforts toward shaping government to address the issues that concern them, provided those issues can be addressed by government in a way that honors the rights of the governed.

You are claiming that there is no way to regulate/restrict abortion that honors the constitutional rights of women, but others disagree, though they agree with you in instances of rape, incest, and endangerment of the mother's health. Those are cases where the mother was or would be deprived of her life and liberty. In cases of healthy pregnancy caused by voluntary sex, women have the liberty to avoid pregnancy.

Quote:

Forced pregnancy absolutely is wrong. There are laws against it. I will fight to uphold the Rule of Law.

If you aren't raped, how are you forced to get pregnant?

Quote:

livinglava wrote:
No parent has full sovereignty over themselves and their families. That ended with the Roman Empire, and arguably even then you couldn't just kill your family without having a very good reason.

I have no idea where you're going with this. Again, reason isn't your forte so I'll let it go.

Full sovereignty over fetal life is very similar to the old Roman law that gave the father sovereignty over the lives of his wife and children. My point was that, even then, I doubt a man could just slaughter his family because he got angry and have other people respect his sovereignty. So there's never been full respect for sovereignty over the lives of others; except under Roe v. Wade, and that was only by defining fetal life as subordinate to maternal life by reference to the fetus not being viable outside the womb.

Quote:

livinglava wrote:
I think you're just biased because abortion and bodily sovereignty feels closer to home for you. I think it's the case with most Democrats/socialists that they don't mind redistribution and inflation because they think the rich will get taxed more than they will and they'll actually come out ahead. I think that if they had to pay extra taxes to benefit people poorer than them, and they didn't come out of the situation better off than without the taxes, they would oppose the taxes.

This is another WTF?? moment. Just stop. It's not a Democratic/Republican thing or a man vs woman thing. Taxes? Where in the world do you dream this crap up from??

It was just an example of how you would be biased against taxes if they cut down your personal standard of living, but you are for them when you think your standard of living will go up at someone else's expense.

In other words, your politics are not based on a fair universal perspective that treats others equally to yourself. You are just biased against things that are against your interest, and biased in favor of those that are in your interest.

It is similar to the 3/5ths compromise where southern delegates were against counting slaves as people where it would cost them more in taxes, but they were for it where it would gain them more political representation in congress.

Likewise, you're for sovereignty over one's own body where it entitles women to abortion, but you're probably/hopefully against it when it comes to someone building a chemical factory or a hotel anywhere they want because it's their sovereign right to do whatever they want with their own property.

2 Replies

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