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Aboration ban

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2019 07:57 pm
There is great extremism on both sides. The pro-choice people and the pro-life people are so busy insulting each other.

Neither side can accept that this is actually a difficult issue, that real people struggle with.

- It is a fact that pregnancy involves a human fetus and that abortion ends this developing life.

- It is a fact that pregnancy effects a woman and that restrictions on abortion impact a woman's ability to make a choice about her own body.

- It is a fact that a small percentage of abortions happen in the third trimester, when a fetus contains distinctly human features, a beating heart, and brain function. Many of these third trimester abortion are medically necessary, some are not.

- It is fact that restrictions on abortion in the past have lead to the death of women, and that this has a greater impact low income and minority women.

- It is not a fact that everyone is either completely pro-life or completely pro-choice. There are many well-meaning women and men with beliefs in between these two extremes.

- It is not a fact that everyone who is pro-life hates women. Many of them are women, and many support feminist causes.

- It is not a fact that everyone who is pro-choice is a godless liberal. There are conservative White men who are pro-choice.

The biggest lie in this discussion is that this is a easy issue, and that only evil people disagree with you. It is not realistic to put your head in the sand and ignore the difficult facts that don't fit into your simplistic ideological narrative.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2019 08:03 pm
@Daveconfused,
Daveconfused wrote:

If there about 1,000,000 abortions/year for all reasons and about 75,000 adoptions/year. Where do we care for, shelter and pay for the 925,000 babies/year who are not adopted? Do we require families to adopt babies, have the mother care for a child she can't afford or set up large orphanage facilities around the country to house a large number of orphans?

Do States or the Federal government step in to pay?

What happens year after year?

Help me understand the solution.

Pregnancy lasts nine months, so it's impossible to have more than four babies in three years, for example (not counting premature births).

It is, however, possible to have more than four abortions in three years.

So it isn't accurate to consider the number of abortions as equal to the number of children who would be born if not aborted.

The solution is for people to abstain from intercourse unless they want to get pregnant.

It's a hard lesson to learn, but it becomes easier to abstain once you grasp the full gravity of pregnancy-risk. For some, that only happens after having a baby.

Risk-taking (not just sexual) is eroticized and glorified in many ways culturally that leads people into temptation, which subsequently leads them into harm when they fail to resist temptation.

Somehow people have to gain awareness of risk and become motivated to resist temptation and thus avert/prevent harm before it happens.

Humans are imperfect, so it will never be possible to avert/prevent all harm, but if we don't do our best to try and help others to try as well, then we're inviting more harm and suffering than necessary.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2019 08:11 pm
@livinglava,
You might not be aware of this, LivingLava, but since the 20th centiry we have developed methods of preventing pregnancy that don't require giving up one of the most enjoyable activities in life.

I love having sex, and I can't imagine giving it up. I don't want to have more children, so I had this simple operation that solved the problem. There are several very effectiveways to enjoy human sexuality without having a pregnancy.

For me, and for many human beings, giving up sex is simply not an option.

Increasing access to reliable birth control and good sex education is the best way to decrease the need for abortion.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 07:56 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You might not be aware of this, LivingLava, but since the 20th centiry we have developed methods of preventing pregnancy that don't require giving up one of the most enjoyable activities in life.

I love having sex, and I can't imagine giving it up. I don't want to have more children, so I had this simple operation that solved the problem. There are several very effectiveways to enjoy human sexuality without having a pregnancy.

For me, and for many human beings, giving up sex is simply not an option.

Increasing access to reliable birth control and good sex education is the best way to decrease the need for abortion.

I understand all that. I just don't think you or many other people realize that it is possible to give up sex, and that once you do it sounds silly to hear someone say that it "is simply not an option."

People start as children who know nothing about sex. Children become sexualized as they reach puberty and adolescence, and then it starts becoming difficult how to manage feelings and desires that come with hormones. Sex is actually just one part of that, since other emotions and desires also become much stronger, along with the mind more generally.

Humans have the ability to resist desire. Some people are stronger in resisting some desires than others. We can progress in our ability to resist and overcome desire, but to do so we have to practice; and practice won't happen if we don't bother because we've become convinced that resistance is futile.

So there's a social-cultural support system for resisting and overcoming desire, and government policies are part of that. If the government sends a signal that people simply can't resist desire, then many may assume that government is the ultimate authority and remain completely ignorant of possibilities beyond what is portrayed by government. This is especially true as religion loses popularity and secular culture grows more widespread, even to the point that religion itself is becoming secularized in many ways.

So while various forms of birth control may help as a stop-gap measure on the path to developing the self-control to overcome sexual desire, they shouldn't mislead people into assuming that sexual desire can't be overcome and that there is no choice but to continue having sex when there is no interest in achieving pregnancy.

As difficult as it is to accept in a culture that treats sex like a harmless recreational activity, it should really be viewed as something as rare as pregnancy and childbirth; i.e. as something you do when you want to have children and otherwise not. That cultural notion is going to be extremely hard to achieve when there are so many cultural forces out to construct sexual pleasure as something light that you can do all the time. In a sense, it would be that way if people would return to the old values where sexual desire was fully sublimated such that dating and little flirtations bore little if any risk of leading to sex unless two people decided first to get married.

Avoiding premarital sex is an ethic that is probably alien to many if not most people these days, but it used to be the standard and it is unfortunate that it was abandoned culturally, because it did a lot to prevent the kinds of sexual abuses, harassment, date rape, and other problems we read about so much in the news today. Maybe there were so many people that broke the rule instead of following it that the rule itself became little more than a farce, but if people generally would strive for and develop the level of self-discipline needed to avoid sex prior to marriage, they would also have mastered the ability to control desire within marriage, which would help them be better partners and make make wiser decisions within family life.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 08:22 am
@livinglava,
We are getting off topic, but your post made me laugh....

Quote:
Once upon a time, abstinence was the norm and people waited for marriage to have intercourse. The clearer the laws are about consequences of sex like unintended pregnancy and abortion, the easier it will be for people to resist the sexual culture and peer pressures that lead young people to make bad decisions.


Have you read the Bible? From Abraham, to the law of Moses, to King David... those people weren't very abstinent.

Or if you look at history... Thomas Jefferson had sex with slaves and escorts and other people's wives, Ben Franklin was all over France (if you know what I mean wink wink nudge nudge).

There was never a time in history where abstinence was the norm, and the times in history where it was repressed and not talked about people still had sex, they just did it worse.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 08:30 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

We are getting off topic, but your post made me laugh....

Quote:
Once upon a time, abstinence was the norm and people waited for marriage to have intercourse. The clearer the laws are about consequences of sex like unintended pregnancy and abortion, the easier it will be for people to resist the sexual culture and peer pressures that lead young people to make bad decisions.


Have you read the Bible? From Abraham, to the law of Moses, to King David... those people weren't very abstinent.

The Bible contains stories of sin and its effects and consequences.

Quote:
Or if you look at history... Thomas Jefferson had sex with slaves and escorts and other people's wives, Ben Franklin was all over France (if you know what I mean wink wink nudge nudge).

Statistical normality is different than cultural normalcy. A majority of people can violate moral/cultural norms in their behavior, but that is different than when cultural assumptions of what's ok are changed.

Quote:
There was never a time in history where abstinence was the norm, and the times in history where it was repressed and not talked about people still had sex, they just did it worse.

Abstinence is always the norm, right up until the moment when people engage in intercourse. Even highly sexually-active people can't spend more time having sex than not having sex. The body just can't handle intercourse all the time.

So the issue is how to sustain the period of abstinence between moments of intercourse longer. Ideally, people can achieve sustained abstinence where there is no urgent desire for intercourse at all.

If you want to continue to debate in favor of intercourse, against abstinence, please don't bother because it won't go anywhere. I will just keep explaining abstinence and you will just keep citing examples of people not abstaining.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 08:35 am
@livinglava,
I am not really interested in getting into an argument about whether people should have sex. I just think it is funny. Technically you are correct; I could abstain from sex. I could also be a Vegan, or take a vow of silence, or poke my eyes out with a chopstick.

I find sex to be an important part of life, it is not just the thrill... it is also the feeling of lying skin to skin with another human being.

You can choose to live without that. I don't. We each have the right to choose our own life's path.


livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 09:50 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am not really interested in getting into an argument about whether people should have sex. I just think it is funny. Technically you are correct; I could abstain from sex. I could also be a Vegan, or take a vow of silence, or poke my eyes out with a chopstick.

I find sex to be an important part of life, it is not just the thrill... it is also the feeling of lying skin to skin with another human being.

You can choose to live without that. I don't. We each have the right to choose our own life's path.

If sex wasn't a problem, abortion wouldn't be an issue and the news wouldn't be filled with stories of sexual abuse, harassment, people losing their careers over sex scandals, and the like.

All the drama surrounding sex is not a cultural accident. It has to do with the deep natural connection between sex and reproduction. That is also the reason abortion is such a big issue. Government, culture, and media shouldn't be leading people into temptation and moral relativism regarding sex. We/they should be helping strengthen people against making choices that will cause harm and destroy lives and families with hurt, guilt, and shame; not to mention the unborn lives that are sacrificed.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 10:21 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
Abstinence is always the norm, right up until the moment when people engage in intercourse. Even highly sexually-active people can't spend more time having sex than not having sex. The body just can't handle intercourse all the time.


You don't know what the meaning of abstinence is.

Keep tilting at windmills, Quixote.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 10:41 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

You don't know what the meaning of abstinence is.

Keep tilting at windmills, Quixote.

Who can be sexually active 24/7 without ever abstaining from intercourse? You have to stop to do things like eat and rest.

The reason I'm saying that is so people who can't fathom abstinence can think of it in terms they understand. When you're not having sex, you're abstaining from sex.

Now, with any habit or addiction, the longer you abstain from using, the more desire is going to build up and the more urgent it will feel. That is why smokers who are trying to quit sometimes say there's a three-day window that, if you can get past it, the urge to light up will subside.

Such a window also exists for fasting. For a certain amount of time you will feel hungry and your stomach will cry out with the urge to be fed, but then something happens and the fast becomes more comfortable.

Relationships are also this way. When you first break up or get divorced, the withdrawal pains are enormous. Then, after you go through the misery for a long time, you start feeling better and you may eventually realize you don't even need to be in a relationship to be happy.

With sexual abstinence, the big challenge would be achieving it without losing a relationship in which you've both become habituated to engaging in intercourse. It could be hard to experience love from a partner when you are suffering withdrawal from sexual gratification/pleasure/relief you have come to expect from them. You should realize that love goes beyond sexual satiation and explore how to be happy together while abstaining sexually.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 10:45 am
@livinglava,
I am curious, how long has it been since you have eaten?

I get your point that people can go for weeks without eating any food. But this isn't something that becomes sustainable.

On the other hand, if everyone went with eating any food it would solve a lot of problems. There would be no wars, crime or traffic.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 10:57 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am curious, how long has it been since you have eaten?

I get your point that people can go for weeks without eating any food. But this isn't something that becomes sustainable.

On the other hand, if everyone went with eating any food it would solve a lot of problems. There would be no wars, crime or traffic.

You're implying an analogy between abstaining from eating and abstaining from sex. They are not comparable. The body does not require sexual activity to maintain health. It's just pleasure that you can go without, like smoking or eating candy. It's not easy to stop if you're used to it, but if you're not used to it, you wouldn't feel an urge to start suddenly either.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 11:06 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
Who can be sexually active 24/7 without ever abstaining from intercourse? You have to stop to do things like eat and rest.


That is not the meaning of abstinence.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 11:12 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

livinglava wrote:
Who can be sexually active 24/7 without ever abstaining from intercourse? You have to stop to do things like eat and rest.

That is not the meaning of abstinence.

What are you trying to say? That 'abstinence' means totally abstaining from sex 24/7/365?

If so, what the point of insisting on that definition except to make people who don't abstain 24/7/365 feel like they are barred from ever understanding or progressing in abstinence?

What I am trying to explain is that abstinence is something that everyone does simply because it's impossible to engage in intercourse 24/7/365.

So if you start by looking at the fact you automatically abstain when you're not engaged in intercourse, then you can start to think about extending the time between sexual encounters.

The longer you can wait and resist the urge to have sex, the better you become at abstaining.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 11:48 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
You're implying an analogy between abstaining from eating and abstaining from sex. They are not comparable.


Factually, that was your analogy not mine. I was just making fun of it.

The analogy isn't that bad. Without sex (i.e. you mother having sex with your father... something I hope they both enjoyed) you would not be alive. Without food, you would not be alive.

And I certainly eat for pleasure. I am particularly fond of chocolate.



livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 05:01 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
You're implying an analogy between abstaining from eating and abstaining from sex. They are not comparable.


Factually, that was your analogy not mine. I was just making fun of it.

Analogies work to explain some aspects of things and not others. You are scrambling the analogy by choosing non-analogous aspects of the things being compared and using that as a (false) reason the analogy can't work for any aspects.

Basically you're obfuscating my point because you don't like it = weak discussion contribution.

Quote:
The analogy isn't that bad. Without sex (i.e. you mother having sex with your father... something I hope they both enjoyed) you would not be alive. Without food, you would not be alive.

And I certainly eat for pleasure. I am particularly fond of chocolate.

Now you're just using what I said as a platform for promoting hedonism. Are you really so biased that you find it necessary to exploit discussions by ignoring the other person's point and using it as a platform for promoting your own position?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 05:08 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Now you're just using what I said as a platform for promoting hedonism. Are you really so biased that you find it necessary to exploit discussions by ignoring the other person's point and using it as a platform for promoting your own position?


I am a hedonist. Yes, that is what I am promoting. No apologies there.

Your point of view.... that government policy should be use to get people to not have sex is ridiculous (I have no problem if people choose abstinence for themselves, not many people do). I am not ignoring your point. I am saying it is ridiculous. You used food as a metaphor for sex. Then you said people shouldn't have sex for pleasure. If this were a serious discussion, the question about whether people should eat for pleasure would be a fair question.

This isn't a serious discussion.


livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 05:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am a hedonist. Yes, that is what I am promoting. No apologies there.

Maybe one day you'll see for yourself that hedonism is a self- and other- destructive philosophy.

Quote:
Your point of view.... that government policy should be use to get people to not have sex is ridiculous (I have no problem if people choose abstinence for themselves, not many people do).

My POV isn't quite that simple. Government policy should not confuse/mislead people into assuming things are kosher when in reality they will lead them into harm of self and/or other. Where government has policies that fail to clarify moral warnings, people (especially non-religious/secular people) can be misled into ignoring the prospective effects and consequences. E.g. prohibition was ended because the government couldn't deal with all the crime, but the side-effect is that alcohol came to seem less harmful than other addictive recreational drugs because it was legal. Government helps people avoid harm by sending a clear negative message, i.e. by criminalizing it. Forgiveness and second-chances are good for people after they are redeemed, but when forgiveness and second-chances get abused by criminals to lure people into crime by telling them they'll only get a slap on the wrist, it challenges government to put its money where its mouth is, so to speak. People should not cause governmental penalties for prohibitions to increase by defying the prohibition. They should just honor and abide by rules and thus make it easy to forgive and redeem those who fall prey to temptation for whatever reason or accident of fate.

Quote:
I am not ignoring your point. I am saying it is ridiculous. You used food as a metaphor for sex. Then you said people shouldn't have sex for pleasure. If this were a serious discussion, the question about whether people should eat for pleasure would be a fair question.

This isn't a serious discussion.

No, because you are making into a defense of pleasure/hedonism. I think we've had that discussion in the past and there's no point in rehashing it.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 05:29 pm
@livinglava,
The problem you have is that the US government is not a theocracy. It is a democracy, and criminalizing sex has never worked very well in a democracy.

People have always liked sex, and in the US from the very beginning we Americans have enjoyed sex for pleasure in and out of marriage.

I don't mind when the US government tells me to use a condom. There is pretty good science behind that push. I would be pretty upset if the government criminalized sex without a condom... each time I have sex, my partner and I have the freedom to weigh the risks of unprotected sex with the added pleasure of having sex without a condom (many men and women find sex to be significantly more pleasurable without a condom). It is about freedom.

If the US government suggests I shouldn't have sex... I would be annoyed, and find it ridiculous.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2019 08:51 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The problem you have is that the US government is not a theocracy. It is a democracy, and criminalizing sex has never worked very well in a democracy.

People have always liked sex, and in the US from the very beginning we Americans have enjoyed sex for pleasure in and out of marriage.

I don't mind when the US government tells me to use a condom. There is pretty good science behind that push. I would be pretty upset if the government criminalized sex without a condom... each time I have sex, my partner and I have the freedom to weigh the risks of unprotected sex with the added pleasure of having sex without a condom (many men and women find sex to be significantly more pleasurable without a condom). It is about freedom.

If the US government suggests I shouldn't have sex... I would be annoyed, and find it ridiculous.


The bottom line is that abortion is a form of killing and so it is better to abstain from sex than to take a risk of having to kill a fetus.

The freedom to have sex isn't a reason to legalize anthrocide at the fetal stage.

You just have to either 1) plan to have a baby if you accidentally get pregnant; or 2) abstain from sex.

Abortion simply shouldn't be an option, just as it shouldn't be an option to euthanize a pet when you no longer find it convenient to care for the pet. You have to either decide to abstain from pet-ownership or follow through with making whatever sacrifices are necessary to provide a decent home for the animal, even if that means looking for someone else to adopt it.

If you really want to have sex and not have a baby, you could talk with your partner about planning for adoption if you accidentally get pregnant. If you are already in contact with an adoption agency, it will be that much easier to plan pre-natal care, birth, and beyond together with the adopting couple/individual.



 

 
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