Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 10:19 am
Supposedly the migrant caravan traveling through Mexico to reach the southern US border consists of many 'thugs,' etc. If these are mercenaries being paid to do what they're doing, the question is whether they might be getting paid by those who want to justify harsher border protection and control.

Even if that was the case, however, what can be done about it? I.e. if there are people who are willing to do anything for money, including migration, drug/human trafficking, etc.; you have to choose whether to just let them or whether to fight them. If you just let them do whatever they may be getting paid to do, then you are allowing very evil investors to get away with using and exploiting people toward unethical ends.

Is that something anyone wants? Do they really give us any choice but to maintain and defend national borders? What is the alternative, if any?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 277 • Replies: 10
No top replies

 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 10:23 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Supposedly


do your research before you start something like this
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 10:54 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Supposedly


do your research before you start something like this


Huh? Do you know for a fact that the herd does or does not have "thugs" in it?
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 11:06 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Supposedly


do your research before you start something like this

There's no way to do conclusive research to verify or reject such a claim.

The simple fact is that it doesn't matter because mercenaries are people who are willing to fight and/or do other bad things for money, so as long as there are such people in the world, and people willing to pay them to terrorize others into supporting border control, it will happen.

Are you claiming that the world is incapable of such things?
0 Replies
 
seac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 06:28 pm
The people in the caravans should take advantage of the good nature of the Mexican populace and remain in Mexico.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 06:35 pm
@livinglava,
It is hard to have a serious conversation on a serious issue when your posts are so ridiculous. "Thugs", "Invasion", "mercenaries", "evil investors".... you are being silly.

livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 06:49 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

It is hard to have a serious conversation on a serious issue when your posts are so ridiculous. "Thugs", "Invasion", "mercenaries", "evil investors".... you are being silly.

Those are the simple terms for discussing reality. "Evil investors" refer to people who have money to pay mercenaries. Don't you realize that there are many mercenaries in the world willing to do all sorts of crazy, violent things for money? And where does that money come from? Simple answer: investors. Would you prefer to use a different word besides, 'investors' to describe people who invest money in mercenary violence?

"Thugs" is another simple word for people who use violence to structure gang life and crime. They are bullies with a purpose. They are not stupid. They know how to organize and persuade people with violence and the threat of violence. Such people are much more effective social organizers than peaceful people who try to persuade others with talk.

What do you want to do? Pretend like there's no violence and dirty money involved with breaching the US border? Why is there drug trafficking and human trafficking in the US? Answer: because there is demand for the products it delivers; e.g. drugs and prostitution. As long as there is lucrative demand for those products within the US there will be rich evil investors spending money at various levels trying to secure effective channels of transport and distribution of substances and people around the US to where the money is.

Really, you don't think that is what's driving these border-control politics?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 06:59 pm
@livinglava,
I don't think you even know what reality is.

Immigrants have been crossing the border since before the US was founded. I have ancestors who were in the Mass Bay colony in the 1600s. I also have a great grandfather who seems to have slipped over the border from Canada at the turn of the 20th century. We have no record of him ever passing through customs... but here I am, his descendant.

Every generation of immigrants, whether they are from Ireland, Italy, Japan, China Germany or Honduras or El Salvador has come, worked hard and made lives for themselves.

Every generation of White Supremacist opposes them with the same tired arguments. Jews were called invaders. Chinese immigrants were called invaders. Italian immigrants were called invaders. All of these communities contributed just fine to the American society.

Immigrants are coming here looking for a better future. They want to fix your lawn or cook you dinner or take care of your kids. We can argue about how beneficial they are, or what the laws should be.

But calling Jewish or Irish or Chinese or Italian or Honduran immigrants "invaders" is ridiculous.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 07:40 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I don't think you even know what reality is.

Immigrants have been crossing the border since before the US was founded. I have ancestors who were in the Mass Bay colony in the 1600s. I also have a great grandfather who seems to have slipped over the border from Canada at the turn of the 20th century. We have no record of him ever passing through customs... but here I am, his descendant.

Every generation of immigrants, whether they are from Ireland, Italy, Japan, China Germany or Honduras or El Salvador has come, worked hard and made lives for themselves.

Every generation of White Supremacist opposes them with the same tired arguments. Jews were called invaders. Chinese immigrants were called invaders. Italian immigrants were called invaders. All of these communities contributed just fine to the American society.

Immigrants are coming here looking for a better future. They want to fix your lawn or cook you dinner or take care of your kids. We can argue about how beneficial they are, or what the laws should be.

But calling Jewish or Irish or Chinese or Italian or Honduran immigrants "invaders" is ridiculous.

Well, I certainly don't think true migration in search of liberty is a problem, but I am not naive enough to think there isn't global organized crime that makes BIG money by trafficking drugs and people around to different places where there is high-paying demand for it.

What do you say about people who aren't white supremacists but nonetheless see how organized crime exploits more open borders? Would you support strengthening the war on drugs and human trafficking while streamlining border-crossing rights for legitimate migrants? If so, how would you propose to prevent criminals from lying and otherwise manipulating the legitimate border-crossing rules in their corrupt interests?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2018 07:57 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Would you support strengthening the war on drugs and human trafficking while streamlining border-crossing rights for legitimate migrants? If so, how would you propose to prevent criminals from lying and otherwise manipulating the legitimate border-crossing rules in their corrupt interests?


1. I think that the war on drugs is a stupid and harmful waste of time and money. As long as Americans want drugs, they will get them one way or the other. We should focus on social cures; treatment and prevention. To blame the public health issues of Americans on poor migrants is ridiculous.

2. I fully support efforts to combat human trafficking. Making it easier to cross the border legally is part of this.

3. We should deal with this current "caravan" in a humane way. We should treat them as fellow human beings in a difficult situation. We should meet their needs, and provide an orderly dignified process to decide their asylum claims.

4. These immigrants are no different than earlier immigrants (Irish, Italian, Asian). Calling them "invaders" or "mercenaries" or anything else is wrong. Of course, throughout history we have done just that.


livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2018 08:33 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

1. I think that the war on drugs is a stupid and harmful waste of time and money. As long as Americans want drugs, they will get them one way or the other. We should focus on social cures; treatment and prevention. To blame the public health issues of Americans on poor migrants is ridiculous.

It's not a question of blame. It is economics. You have a product that sells for $100s or maybe $1000s per ounce and then you have a plethora of poor agricultural workers available in central and south America for every possible aspect of making and trafficking it, including getting paid to migrate without carrying any contraband just for the sake of acting as decoys and distracting police from the actual mules.

I'm sure many of the people recruited to perform this labor would be just as happy or happier to work in a factory or produce cultural products or do something else, but they have bosses who know what sells and those bosses are cracking the whip to get that stuff across the border and into the hands of the people who are paying so much for it.

Quote:
2. I fully support efforts to combat human trafficking. Making it easier to cross the border legally is part of this.

You don't think more open borders makes it easier to covertly pimp girls (and boys?) from wherever to wherever? In a way I can see your point, e.g. tracking legal migrants is easier than trying to catch people who sneak across, but I think if you have large legal traffic across borders, it also makes it easier for the contraband and exploited/trafficked people to slip through.

The real solution is to reform the general population(s) of the world to stop abusing migration and trade to exploit each other, and until there is widespread cooperation in such reform, to maintain strong borders as one tool/weapon among many against exploitation.

Quote:
3. We should deal with this current "caravan" in a humane way. We should treat them as fellow human beings in a difficult situation. We should meet their needs, and provide an orderly dignified process to decide their asylum claims.

I agree, as long as there aren't people taking advantage of kindness for weakness. This is what generally happens with anti-authoritarian people. E.g. spend a day observing kids misbehave in a classroom and you will see all the strategies kids learn from the popular culture about how to rebel against and defy 'the man.' There is so much lying and deceit among people who are able to simply turn off their consciences when they believe they are dealing with 'the enemy,' and they have been conditioned to see police and the US government as 'the enemy.'

Quote:
4. These immigrants are no different than earlier immigrants (Irish, Italian, Asian). Calling them "invaders" or "mercenaries" or anything else is wrong. Of course, throughout history we have done just that.

No, that is a propaganda campaign of liberals to portray them in relation to citizens' ancestors who were immigrants. It's a brilliant ego-sell to take people's pride in their grandparents and use it to pull the wool over their eyes about global organized crime.

In fact, you're right though. Organized crime was also a thing during periods of past migration, and something like alcohol sales during prohibition would have created a huge amount of GDP to fund jobs for migrants. This is, I think, part of why liberals are so morally relative, i.e. because they figure if it makes money and creates jobs, we should just tolerate it. But growing GDP with things like drug sales and other 'pork barrel consumer spending' adds no real value to the economy, drives inflation, and ultimately causes social-economic damage due to dependency (physiological and economic) and in other ways.

0 Replies
 
 

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Migrant Caravan 'Invasion'
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/17/2019 at 09:04:37