Should there be a school policy of no zeros?

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
teachers can use any system of grading they want and their freedom to do that trumps any desire by the school system to provide uniform feedback to students and parents

I find this a little insulting to teachers. I didn't use "any system of grading I wanted".

Teachers are professionals, they are responsible for what happens in their classroom. The teachers know the students, understand the curriculum and are responsible for providing productive learning environment. Having political officials who have never been in a classroom set a uniform policy is ridiculous.

Your claim is unrealistic anyway, unless the school board is going to impose a complete system for marking papers, assignments etc... teachers develop their own anyway according to the needs of their students.

It is a stupid policy. I am not saying that teachers shouldn't be fired by autocratic bureaucrats when they don't follow their policies.

Rather, in my humble opinion, they should quit and get a job where they will be treated with respect.

I see a lot of people with opinions on how teachers should do their jobs. Is there anyone here who has even considered doing it themselves?

It is a crappy, thankless job, that earns no respect.

1 Reply

It needs to be tossed.

A policy of not giving a zero might be acceptable for kindergarten and first graders; but, after that it would be detrimental to the future of the child. They'd figure life is exceedingly easy, 'I can get a 50 just by having my name in the class list!'.

Additionally, if 50 is the lowest, what happens to the student who truly does have a total of 50% for a grade, through test scores, class participation and assignments? Shouldn't they have a higher grade?

2 Replies

@Sturgis,

Quote:

Additionally, if 50 is the lowest, what happens to the student who truly does have a total of 50% for a grade, through test scores, class participation and assignments? Shouldn't they have a higher grade?

It seems clear to me... give that kid a 100%.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

But then what happens to the student who gets 100%?

Incidentally, I received two test scores in high school under 50%. A goose egg on Julius Caesar and a 24% on a trigonometry final. The English class teacher still thought I was good enough for Honors English (thought I'd deliberately failed the test). The character gave me an 88 for a final grade. In trig, I ended up with the dreaded 56 as a grade. Back then, the 56 meant the student needed to pass the next part or receive two failures. Passing the second half raised the 56 to a passing grade.

As to 50, in NYC, the last I saw, standard class passing grade had been reduced to a mere 60%. (Honors and SP are still at a higher grade)

1 Reply

@Sturgis,

Sturgis wrote:

Additionally, if 50 is the lowest, what happens to the student who truly does have a total of 50% for a grade, through test scores, class participation and assignments? Shouldn't they have a higher grade?

An F is an F. I don't see how giving someone who "earned" the F a higher score does anything.

To me, if someone has an F and an A, that feels like a C. An F and two A's feels like a high C, low B. An F and three A's feels like a B. If you just used letter grades instead of numbers, that is what you would get. Having a grading scale that reflects that makes sense to me. On a zero to 100 scale, a zero and three A's is at best a D. If the scale was 1-5, with an F being a one and an A being a five, a zero is the same as a -4. I don't think the policy is bad per se. I think there are plenty of reasons students miss an assignment and there should be consequences for that, but zero on a 100 point scale is almost a death sentence, especially if the grade is composed of three or four major components. I don't see a problem with trying a more fair grading system. Using 50-100 is not the only solution you could propose, but it is consistent with the common 10 point per letter grading scheme.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I find this a little insulting to teachers. I didn't use "any system of grading I wanted".

I'm not sure why asking you to clarify your position is insulting to anyone. This is exactly what you wrote.

Quote:

The teacher will set up the grading policy... or do they ban multipliers or extra-credit too? Either this is a meaningless bureaucratic rule that can be adjusted, or it is part of a draconian system where grading is dictated from above by a school board that has probably never been in the classroom.

Teachers can come up with a grading scheme, that meets their professional goals and is appropriate for their topic, classroom, and professional experience. There is no need, or reason, for an administration to dictate in this way. Parents and School Boards and everyone else need to realize that what happens in a classroom depends on the teacher, and the teacher should be empowered to make the best decisions.

If the school system says "we will report grades using an A-F system where A means ..., etc", do teachers have an obligation to follow that policy in your opinion? That's what this thread started with. Do teachers have to follow rules or just students?

1 Reply

@Sturgis,

Quote:

But then what happens to the student who gets 100%?

I already answered that, she gets an 150%. If you are going to add 50%, then add it across the board. Then the math works alright.

Let me tell you a dirty little secret-- grading is a subjective process by nature. Unless you are grading a spelling test, or straightforward math problems, the grade you give a student is going to be based on subjective decision (or multiple subjective decisions). Teachers are taught to use rubrics, and they do... but even with them it comes down to judging... did that student use rational though perfectly, or almost perfectly.

This is part of a teacher's job.

1 Reply

@engineer,

1. I am suggesting that teachers, as professionals, should have the ability to make classroom and curricular decisions that fit the needs of their students. When you change giving teacher professional authority to best do their job as "doing whatever they want", the implication is that teachers aren't looking out for the best outcome in their classroom and for their students. Teachers are responsible professionals and should be given authority to match their responsibility.

2. Comparing teachers to children is a little offputting. The relationship you have with your employer is quite a bit different than the relationship a teacher has with his students. I don't think this comparison is very valid (and I am going to guess that your children have a bedtime that you don't impose on yourself).

3. Teachers, as employees, are accountable to their employers. The employer has the right fire teachers. I don't contest that point. I happen to also believe that employers have an obligation to respect their employees. But that is beside the point.

It doesn't change the fact that this is a idiotic rule.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Um...
To the first, if the top level limit is 100% then there is no '150%'.

To the second, I am quite aware of subjectivity when it comes to grading. Been there, done that.

In a perfect (or maybe just better) set of grading systems, all the info would be fed into a computer which would without emotion, spit out a student's grade based on tests, classwork, other assignments, class participation (there'd be a recording device at every desk to register what a student did and said in class).

Oh heck! Let's just get really wacky and just pass all the kids no matter what. Their future employers can sort it all out.

The "no zeroes" is as foolheaded as the ribbons and trophies being given just for showing up.

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@Sturgis,

Quote:

In a perfect (or maybe just better) set of grading systems, all the info would be fed into a computer which would without emotion, spit out a student's grade based on tests, classwork, other assignments, class participation (there'd be a recording device at every desk to register what a student did and said in class).

This dystopian vision of education made me chuckle. Education is person to person.

0 Replies

@Sturgis,

Sturgis wrote:

Um...
To the first, if the top level limit is 100% then there is no '150%'.

Simple fix? Drop the % part of the equation and go by a 150 point system? Which basically makes the 50 points roughly the same as the original 0%. This whole goofy policy is as bad/pointless as banning red pens to grade and highlight mistakes on homework, tests, papers, etc....

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I have considered being a teacher - and almost did this as a career change.

I don't think it is entirely thankless - I just did a meet the teachers night - you go to each class as your child and the teacher does a 10 minute introduction on what the class is about and their expectations.

One teacher when a parent stated that our children were lucky to have him - said no I am blessed, blessed to be able to teach these children.

In truth our children are lucky to be taught by him - this particular teacher has an uncanny ability to make each student think they are the most important student to him.

Many of the teachers I saw that night were enthusiastic and engaged and the parents the same.

However, of course these are also the parents that are engaged in their children's learning as we were the ones to attend - my guess the attendance was about 25%.

My daughter is lucky this year she has great teachers - at the very least they definitely want to be there. She is excited about her year as in her words this is the best school schedule ever.

1 Reply

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

Sturgis wrote:

Additionally, if 50 is the lowest, what happens to the student who truly does have a total of 50% for a grade, through test scores, class participation and assignments? Shouldn't they have a higher grade?

An F is an F. I don't see how giving someone who "earned" the F a higher score does anything.

To me, if someone has an F and an A, that feels like a C. An F and two A's feels like a high C, low B. An F and three A's feels like a B. If you just used letter grades instead of numbers, that is what you would get. Having a grading scale that reflects that makes sense to me. On a zero to 100 scale, a zero and three A's is at best a D. If the scale was 1-5, with an F being a one and an A being a five, a zero is the same as a -4. I don't think the policy is bad per se. I think there are plenty of reasons students miss an assignment and there should be consequences for that, but zero on a 100 point scale is almost a death sentence, especially if the grade is composed of three or four major components. I don't see a problem with trying a more fair grading system. Using 50-100 is not the only solution you could propose, but it is consistent with the common 10 point per letter grading scheme.

I think what you are equating this with is that if there is one small thing they miss it would be a zero it would kill their grade. What you are missing is that you are equating this missed homework assignment the same as say a major project or test.

Most kids are not going to earn a zero on something unless they simply do not do anything on that item. It is highly unlikely that a student pass in a project and gets a zero unless they just write their name on it. They are going to get some credit.

A homework item could easily be overlooked and earned a zero but then one small homework assignment is going to have minimal impact on a grade. Homework is a very low percent of a student's grade - most teachers rank it as at the most 20% of their grade. And thinking of homework over 3 months that one zero averaged in over say 30 other homework assignments minimal - my daughter has received an zero on a homework and still had an A average for homework - a low A.

Then tests and projects and presentations have higher weight. If a kid does not do a major project that kids does deserve a zero. Projects are often even given class time to work on it and some at home typically so if they have class time - how can they get a zero unless they just sit there and do nothing?

1 Reply

@Linkat,

What you hear at a parents night is quite different than what you hear in a teacher's lounge.

I met some damn good teachers (I wasn't one of them) who cared about the kids, put in tons off effort and who challenged the kids in a way that they respected. Even the best get frustrated. Yes, there are teachers who in spite of everything are "enthusiastic and engaged"; one of my good friends taught English. He challenged the kids, and they loved him. Still, talk to him in May, and he was spent. It is a very difficult job and these teachers should be paid...

... well let me put it this way, I left teaching in 2002 (that was my last year). I am now being paid well over three times the salary I made as science teacher, with far less stress and less work. Yes, the summer was nice, but in total teaching was by far the most demanding job I have ever had.

Teachers are able to create a grading system that is fair, consistent and reflects the goals and needs of their students. This rule is idiotic.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1. I am suggesting that teachers, as professionals, should have the ability to make classroom and curricular decisions that fit the needs of their students. When you change giving teacher professional authority to best do their job as "doing whatever they want", the implication is that teachers aren't looking out for the best outcome in their classroom and for their students. Teachers are responsible professionals and should be given authority to match their responsibility.

I agree with this 100% - teachers should be treated as the professionals they are - if they suck as teachers and do not perform and teach their students hey get fired same as I would if I did not perform my job.

0 Replies

@tsarstepan,

tsarstepan wrote:

This whole goofy policy is as bad/pointless as banning red pens to grade and highlight mistakes on homework, tests, papers, etc....

Ha ha - at work I need to review others work - compare it in a sense to like an editor but for financial disclosures. Any way - I would use a colored pen so it was easy to see what I wrote on paper which the print is black - so I used a red pen once and this guy told me not to use red because it is an "angry" color.

I was able to find green and used that instead.

0 Replies

@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

I think what you are equating this with is that if there is one small thing they miss it would be a zero it would kill their grade. What you are missing is that you are equating this missed homework assignment the same as say a major project or test.

We don't know what the exact policy is or how it applies in this case, but I am more interested in the math and fairness of the policy.

engineer wrote:

To me, if someone has an F and an A, that feels like a C. An F and two A's feels like a high C, low B. An F and three A's feels like a B. If you just used letter grades instead of numbers, that is what you would get.

This is the real test to me. Three A's and an F is a B in my mind. If you have a system where three A's and an F is a D or F, I think there is opportunity for improvement. I don't see the proposed 50 minimum as "ribbons and trophies being given just for showing up", I see it as giving an F to someone who deserves a F, but not a super F of death.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

We don't know what the exact policy is or how it applies in this case, but I am more interested in the math and fairness of the policy.

The question is why you think the school board should dictate this policy, instead of respecting the classroom teachers? The reason that teachers are better suited to make these policies.

1. The teachers knows the subject matter and level that they will be teaching. The school board doesn't.

2. The teacher is responsible for the individual classroom environment and creating a space conducive to learning. The school board isn't.

3. The teacher has experience in a classroom and knows what works and what doesn't. The teacher sees the effects that each policy has on his students' learning and motivation. The teacher can make small adjustments based on specific needs to this group of students. The school board doesn't spend any significant time with students.

4. The teacher has the responsibility for the progress of the students. The decisions they make have a direct on the teacher's educational goals. The school board in detached from students in individual classrooms.

5. Different classes have different needs. A creative writing class might be informal, but the students need to write papers for their peers to give feedback... or else the class fails. A math class might be more formal with assignments and tests. The writing class might allow late assignments, the math class might not. The teachers can make these decisions independently. The school board can't.

The only argument I have heard in favor of letting the school board dictate classroom policy is that a uniform system will allow parents of students in one classroom to compare their kids with kids in other classrooms. I am not sure this is a worthwhile goal.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The question is why you think the school board should dictate this policy, instead of respecting the classroom teachers?

I would be surprised at any school district that did not specify a standard grading system. Our local system has a policy for high schools that essentially says "We use an A-F system. An A means 90-100, a B means 80-89, etc" Why would any system allow teachers to use any system they wanted? My kids' report cards would have O's and A's and E's and numbers? (I've seen all of those in the past.) Every teacher would have an independent system? I think that is absurd.

Within the overall guidelines, I agree teachers have a lot of leeway, but I think having an overall structure is a plus for teachers since it gives everyone a point of reference. Can you show me a school system where every teacher just makes up whatever grading scale they want?

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@engineer,

Quote:

Can you show me a school system where every teacher just makes up whatever grading scale they want?

When I was a teacher, we entered letter grades into a computer, and that was that. There may have been something about a 7 or 10 point scale in the handbook, but I don't even remember and it didn't matter anyway. Each of us teachers created our own grading policies.

Each of us sent out a class packet at the beginning of each term that outlined our individual grading policies. Students were expected to read these packets. Every teacher made up their own policy on grades. Some teacher included things like "free home works" (you could miss a number each term with no penalty) and make up work. Different teachers had different percentages for homework, tests and projects, policies on make up work, etc. etc.

I don't know if it was required that I send out a class packet... we all did it and it provided a defense against angry parents Wink

, as in "see that policy is clearly in the course packet that your perfect daughter apparently failed to read, should I take off more points for that?".

Do your kids get packets from teachers explaining class policies? I recently had to sign a couple of them for my daughter's eighth grade teachers.

2 Replies

Should there be a school policy of no zeros?

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