6
   

Incel - What should be done?

 
 
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 03:56 am
Hello,

'Incel', the term that bulldozed into the news in the wake of the Toronto van attack. It stands for 'involuntary celibates', a group of men online who feel they are being denied the 'right' to sexual intercourse, or at the very least feel that women won't give them the light of day because of their perceived 'lack of status'.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/world/canada/incel-reddit-meaning-rebellion.html

Obviously the actions of these guys, or of Alek Minassian in particular (the van driver) are deplorable, and dead wrong. There's no excuse for it, but that's not the point I want to make.

Obviously, these guys, whether right or wrong, feel slighted by women. While I personally find their complaints fairly ridiculous, and their actions heinous, that doesn't mean the sentiment itself shouldn't be examined.

Because, in my opinion, regardless of how I personally feel about a subject, if a group of people, be they of certain ethnicity, belief or social 'class', feel the need to band together and feel validated in committing outrageous actions and attacks because of that subject, it should not be ignored, but examined.

So, I ask here:
a) Is there some sort of valid ground for the feelings of these guys? Are we, in fact, creating a society where men are discriminated against by women because of perceived lack of status?
a.1) If so, is there something that we can do to counter this sentiment?

b) If, however, there are no valid grounds, what should be done? Should these men be labelled as members of a terrorist organization?

and c) what are ways we as a society ( and not necessarily the government) can counteract these feelings, for example if we perceive such feelings and sentiments in family members or friends?

Does anyone have any ideas?

  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 6 • Views: 1,434 • Replies: 38

 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 04:31 am
@najmelliw,
a) No
b) No
c) I believe this sort of insanity is nurtured by our culture and can only be countered by raising individuals to question the pervasive underlying assumptions about social status and sexuality as portrayed by Hollywood and Madison Avenue.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 05:52 am
@najmelliw,
The biggest problem on A2K is that while all Islamist violence/terrorism is condemned by everyone, there are those on here who support far right and incel inspired terrorist acts.
jespah
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 06:49 am
@najmelliw,
People will always be choosy about their sex partners. Some of that choosiness is smart (e. g. wanting someone who'll be faithful, or who will stay out of jail or is compatible) and some is foolish (e. g. height - seriously?). That's the way of the world. It is nothing new; it just has a new name.

Those guys are probably more than happy to separate out women into fuckable and unfuckable. Those separations can be based on age, weight, race, religion, clothing style, makeup usage, hair length or any number of other things.

If they wanted women to have sex with them that badly, they would be paying prostitutes or taking on all comers (pun intended). They wouldn't be stuck on Barbie doll or Kim Kardashian standards or whatever floats their boats.

So it's not about sex at all. It's because these guys think they "deserve" sex from some "quality" women. This is nothing but another word for unjustified privilege.

And if they want to have sex with Gal Gadot or JLo or Cardi B or whatever flavor they crave lookalikes, well, so do lots of other guys who don't go on killing rampages.

Want sex with those women? Get in line.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 07:51 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The biggest problem on A2K is that while all Islamist violence/terrorism is condemned by everyone, there are those on here who support far right and incel inspired terrorist acts.



Can you name a single person on A2K who supports incel or terrorist acts? This is an awfully big attack on fellow a2kers.

I can't remember anyone on Able2know supporting either.
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 07:58 am
Prostitution is legal in Canada. Go pay for it like everyone else.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 08:01 am
@maxdancona,
Nonono has espoused Incel's ideology, and you've come pretty close yourself, constantly bleating about how no woman has ever wanted to initiate sex with you.

Both you and your buddy Coldjoint got very upset about Nazis being banned from Britain.

You're very good at lying to yourself, but most people can see straight through you.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 08:05 am
@izzythepush,
And Izzy talked about wanting to have sex with sheep . He also said that you think Islamic terrorists should be able to take over England and marry kids.

See... I can make stuff up too.

How about letting each person express their own beliefs without these silly personal attacks.


0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 08:24 am
@najmelliw,
It seems like these are completely separate issues....

1) Incel, as the idea that anyone is owed sex, is ridiculous.

2) Killing people indiscriminately for any reason is barbaric.

3) People have the right to believe or express ridiculous ideas. They don't have the right to kill other people.

4) It is not valid to call every Muslim a murderer just because on Muslim person commits murder, nor is it valid to call every person with this crazy belief a terrorist just because one person commits an act of terror.

Any other questions?
0 Replies
 
najmelliw
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 09:45 am
So it seems the general consensus is that these men are misguided, and that their misogyny is misplaced and uncalled for. I concur.

However, how can we combat these sentiments? While I don't think that labeling a group of people as terrorists would be a just cause of action, at least in the Dutch newspaper I read it was said that more attacks are predicted to come. I find that a frightening development, to be honest.

So what else can we do to stop this sort of behavior? Pointing out their reasoning is flawed is probably not going to help: ignoring them is not an option either, especially if they seem committed to perpetrating these sort of attacks in the foreseeable future.

Hightor has a point I think, but how do you counter that? I don't see that happening soon: Or should we make it a moral responsibility (somehow) that more fashion shoots/movies/theater productions cast 'ugly' people to show that 'ugly' people can be great too? (I really dislike these sort of qualifiers, to be honest). Or should this be part of our education?

Perhaps this whole 'incel' movement is in itself a response to shifting views on the value and role of both genders in modern day society? Or might this be a case of extreme peer pressure, a misogynistic hatred developed by a culture of 'virgin shaming' that seems to become more prevalent in schools these days?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 09:54 am
@najmelliw,
Let's be honest here. There is a desire by some of the more extreme liberals to use this tragic event for political advantage. This is, as far as I can tell, a crazy fringe belief held by some online group who feel cheated by life. There are millions of these fringe groups. The dire warnings are exaggerated... are we going to do this awful exercise to score political points with every tragic mass killing? There seems to always be an effort to fit these stories into a political narrative; if this incel guy was also an undocumented Muslim... it would be interesting to see which side would win.

This is a crazy fringe group expressing ideas that to most of us are ridiculous. People have every right to express crazy ideas, and on the internet they do. Are you going to "combat" every crazy idea on the internet?

The issue of changing gender roles in society is completely unrelated.


najmelliw
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 10:20 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Let's be honest here. There is a desire by some of the more extreme liberals to use this tragic event for political advantage.


There's a desire by all political parties to use events as they happen to further their own political agenda. That's not news, nor is that what I'm trying to talk about here.

maxdancona wrote:

This is a crazy fringe group expressing ideas that to most of us are ridiculous. People have every right to express crazy ideas, and on the internet they do. Are you going to "combat" every crazy idea on the internet?


Most fringe groups do not use vans to attack innocent people. And that's the sort of behavior I would like to 'combat', and I happen to think that the best way to 'combat' people who work from a certain ideological point of view, is to combat the ideas they base their actions on.

maxdancona wrote:

The issue of changing gender roles in society is completely unrelated.


Is it? That seems to be a pretty strong claim given that these guys are so disgruntled because they can't seem to 'score' with a girl.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 10:32 am
@najmelliw,
1. A group did not launch this attack. It was apparently a single person. This is guilt by association. You are doing the same thing that extremists on the right wing do when they blame every immigrant for a murder committed by one.

2. Do you think there weren't "disgruntled" men 50, 100, 200 years ago? If changing gender roles were responsible... that would imply that this was a new phenomenon. Just to be balanced, you also see women expressing frustration that they are not seen as attractive.

There have always been bitter frustrated people who feel that the world owes them something. This isn't new.


najmelliw
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 11:08 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

1. A group did not launch this attack. It was apparently a single person. This is guilt by association. You are doing the same thing that extremists on the right wing do when they blame every immigrant for a murder committed by one.


Firstly, while that's factually true, then again this single person linked his actions to 'incel'. In fact, he spoke about 'the incel rebellion', and then he continued on about the 'supreme gentleman' Elliot Rodger, a college student who shot and killed 6 people in 2014 in California. Apparently, other 'incel members' have lauded the actions of mr. Rodger as well, which seems to provide common ground. Furthermore, according to the article I linked to above, there are even already 'incel' members who find the actions of mr. Minassian praiseworthy.

Secondly, you draw an analogy with how my attack on 'incel' given the actions of a single individual are equivalent to the attack of the far right on immigrants based on the actions of one. But that doesn't work, since this 'incel' group is a group of people that operate under the same ideology, whereas 'immigrants' is a societal label tagged onto people who immigrate from abroad: those people don't share any ideology with one another.

Thirdly, and finally, I have made it clear (I hope) in my OP that, while I don't condone the actions of mr. Minassian, it was not my point to start this discussion to condemn him. I'm not looking to place guilt: I'm looking for the reasons why these guys feel how they feel, and what we as society can do to counteract them.

maxdancona wrote:

2. Do you think there weren't "disgruntled" men 50, 100, 200 years ago? If changing gender roles were responsible... that would imply that this was a new phenomenon. Just to be balanced, you also see women expressing frustration that they are not seen as attractive.

There have always been bitter frustrated people who feel that the world owes them something. This isn't new.


Of course there have been disgruntled people throughout history. But how often is it a group of men who turn misogynistic due to a lack of sexual intercourse, which they apparently see as some sort of male right? I can't seem to think of any examples, and I reckon that might be because of changing gender roles... But please, feel free to name other possibilities or reasons, if you have any!
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 12:08 pm
@najmelliw,
Sure, you are correct that there was another killing 4 years ago related to this little group. This is still a reddit group of just 5,000 people. Not everyone who is frustrated with their sex life is a killer. If someone feels frustrated about their sex life... there are practical, healthy things they can do. They can go to the gym, get therapy, join social groups, and be more outgoing in asking for dates.

I don't get your point about disgruntled men. Are you saying that there have never been small groups of disgruntled men in history who became misogynistic due to a lack of sexual intercourse? I find this difficult to believe... but I am not sure what your point is anyway.

If you are looking for a solution, the answer is that these people need to individually take the steps to make their lives better. This is true for all of us, if there is something about your life you don't like, take responsibility. This has nothing to do with any societal trends. It is just how life works.


0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 01:13 pm
@najmelliw,
najmelliw wrote:

However, how can we combat these sentiments?


We argue against their misogyny, we don't allow it to be normalised. We don't try to refine rape to suit our own purposes. We don't allow them to constantly portray men as the victims. We don't allow them to think that sex is theirs as a right, and that women are doing something morally wrong by not sleeping with them. We don't allow them to use race as a smokescreen by attacking white women and claiming it's about white privilege when really it's about attacking women.

When I say we, I don't include Max, because he's done all of it with bells on. Max has been caught lying on many occasions. I don't lie because it's too easy to get caught out.

If it turns out that the murderer is Nonono I wouldn't be at all surprised. I'm not joking, when I heard it was incel I immediately thought of him. Max made him very welcome and reinforced his prejudices.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 01:23 pm
@izzythepush,
Funny, I agree with Izzy on the first paragraph (although I don't know why he specifies race). He is basically saying what I am saying just with a little more anger. Then he has to go off the rails in the second paragraph. He seems obsessed with attacking me even when he agrees with me.

He should go sex with farm animals just like he said he wanted to on multiple occasions (on the other hand, maybe Izzy has found the solution you are looking for).

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 01:32 pm
@najmelliw,
Izzy's goal is clear. He wants to demonize anyone who doesn't fit into his ideological bubble, and sees this as a convenient political opportunity to attack anyone who disagrees with him about anything. He is calling another member a likely murderer. I don't know if this was your intent in starting the thread.

This is a small fringe group. I do not believe there is anything about society at large that is responsible other than the individuals involved.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2018 02:55 pm
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

People will always be choosy about their sex partners. Some of that choosiness is smart (e. g. wanting someone who'll be faithful, or who will stay out of jail or is compatible) and some is foolish (e. g. height - seriously?). That's the way of the world. It is nothing new; it just has a new name.


What are you trying to do, define natural selection?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Apr, 2018 01:10 am
Sounds like an escalation of gender wars. Scary.
0 Replies
 
 

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Incel - What should be done?
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 09/20/2019 at 07:48:09