DJ'EVER NOTICE . . .

Good to see you come out like that. Good for you!

Yes. Friends of mine who attend church fairly often but who don't have a strong faith have told me the same thing and I totally understand that (though haven't heard it said about confession). And in that sense, religious behavior is quite like joining a curling or bridge club. But in most cases, there is much more going on both socially and psychologically in faith groups.

shame shame shame

I was merely joking, not casting aspersions.

It gets hard to participate in forums when the most innocent of posts becomes fodder for controversy.

Jeva

That is EXACTLY what Hitler said, you goddamn bastard.

I would be surprised if the actual number isn't higher than 10%.

I know quite a few people who attend church on a weekly basis who have far less than an absolute faith in the existence of God.

My brother and his wife are both atheists, but they have been attending Christian churches for the last 45 years. When their children were young, they brought them with them, and they both volunteered for administrative duties for the church they attended for the longest period of time. They've moved several times and each time they joined a local church (Always Protestant. Apparently the Catholic church was a bridge too far).

They are now retired and have been empty nesters for quite some time and yet they both still attend church regularly.

I, on the other hand, am a theist and, other than on the occasion of a wedding or funeral, haven't attended a church service since I was 12 years old.

My brother is also far more community-minded than I am, and this is very definitely why he has always been a member of a neighborhood church. In response to the question I posed to him very early on, concerning how he manages to fit into a community that is based on a common belief in God and the teachings of a certain religion, he explained that he goes through the motions. He enjoys participating in rituals which seem to mean so much to his neighbors...especially the singing of hymns, and it's the price of community with these folks.

It's interesting because to me it indicates an appreciation for religion that many of his fellow atheists don't share. This is not to say that such atheists don't appreciate the communal aspect of religion, but they tend to believe the negative aspects of organized religion outweigh whatever acknowledged positives there may be.

For my brother, it is the humanity of organized religion that is appealing, while to me it is the corrupting influence of human nature that results in an undeniable history of negative influence on societies.

Community is certainly possible without the foundation of a common religion, but it's not coincidental that it so often is. Our cultural history sets the stage for it, but so do the teachings of most major religions. So while religion, and specifically coming together to worship in a church, provides a vehicle for acting on the innate desire of a social species to commune, the tenets of that religion can reinforce the altruistic aspect of that desire.

I suppose there are both theists and atheists who would consider the decades-long practices of my brother and sister-in-law to be dishonest and a sham, but, putting aside, to best of my ability, my fondness for this couple, I don't. He tells me that if directly asked, he answers that he struggles with his faith. This is not entirely truthful, because to the best of my knowledge (and we have discussed the existence of God, or lack thereof, on many occasions and in great depth) he is not at all engaged in a struggle. He will tell you that he is as convinced as a person can reasonably be that God does not exist. There is nothing startlingly new about his reasoning for his belief, but it's firmly held by him. On the other hand, he is not masquerading as true-believer dedicated to evangelical activity. In fact, he will also tell you that in the churches of which he has been a member, discussions concerning his personal faith are not very common. I imagine there are some churches where this would not be the case, but then my brother and his wife would not remain members of them for long. Not because they were likely to be found out, but because they were too intensely religious for them.

I also imagine that there are people (probably ones who believe my brother is being dishonest) who would be very critical of any church in which atheists could manage to remain members of their community for years. I guess I understand where they would be coming from, but as someone who doesn't hold religious orthodoxy in particularly high esteem, I don't have a problem with it.

It's obvious to me that you don't have to be a member of any organized faith, or to believe in God to be an ethical, contributing member of a community. If you seek community, a neighborhood church is a good place to start and it seems to me that a wise pastor would welcome atheists who are generous of spirit, and not interested in attempting to dissuade anyone of their faith, to join the church in doing good works in their neighborhood. In that environment, there would be a much greater chance of the atheists coming to the faith than if they were excluded. Hardcore preaching to them would probably drive them away and who benefits from that? At the same time, the atheists would be unrealistic, unreasonable and petty if they complained about the pastor adding words to the hoped-for process of conversion through osmosis.

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck . . .

God used to stop everything and find my mother’s car keys every morning. Why he prioritized her keys over stopping murders and childhood cancer, I never quite understood, but there you are.

Really interesting story, Finn.

I've been a nonbeliever for my entire life — albeit one with a theology degree from a Jesuit-affiliated university — and I've never felt comfortable fitting myself in a Christian congregation. I can't "go through the motions" although I have nothing against non-believers, such as your brother and his wife, who can. People are made differently. I will say that the one aspect of religious faith which I miss in my contemplative life is the ability to feel a sense of personal gratitude with respect to creation. I don't feel that the lack of this perceived "personal" connection decreases the meaning of human life but I can see how feeling it would be nice. But it has nothing to do with "going to church".

I made some toast t'day, and guess what?























It looked just like . . . toast.

Though raised Mennonite with lots of happy Jesus stories, I'd wrestled my way to atheism by the time I was 12 or 13. But in my case, I have always had a deep sense of personal gratitude that I'm conscious and engaged with the other furniture in this universe.

The problem, of course, is that even though I have these sincere urges to say "Thanks!" there's no one or no thing to say it to.

say thanks to organic chemistry. especially purines and pyrimidines

Yes. And thank God for them, too.

mennonite hmm?
You are what you eat. To our Mennonite neighbors anything religious is just a reason to get fatter.

Yes, a rather liberal version of the thing but that was our upbringing. Re eating and body size, I still probably feel as safe and comfortable as is possible when I get hugged by a chubby Mennonite woman. And no matter what any doctor advises or even orders, I will continue eating good bread. Also, like any proper Mennonite, I will kill people who get between me and roll kuchen with watermelon. Further, as it happens, I am on my way upstairs right this moment to do up some Rührei (actually true).

thts not a Sunday dish. Thats my mom's mid-week dinner. Im used to it with hunks of some kind of wurst which would be fried separately and served as a side. Rurhei has tomatoes innit too eh? (I think I got it remembered).