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Shouldn't we all be equals?

 
 
Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 05:23 pm
I am wondering why the United Nations have put into action the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Shouldn't we all have the same rights? The majority of these Acts just restate the rights that they already have. However, even by doing that, you're forging a barrier in between people of different ethnic origins, saying that they deserve more of a right to freedom and security than their neighbour should. As well, arguing for the different treatment of indigenous peoples is just different type of discrimination- whether that differential treatment is against, or in, their favour. It isn't right to excuse indigenous people from the same structures of law, just because their ancestors may have been oppressed. Many people were oppressed in history. But that's what it should be-history. We can decide whether or not to forge a new path, or just change the positions of the players. As a person once said, "we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes a Canadian and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin." If indigenous First Nations cease to exist, we wouldn't be dealing with an epidemic of such extreme poverty. History is meant to belong in the past. Please explain this confusing situation to me.
 
jespah
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 05:58 pm
@Questions1659,
Questions1659 wrote:

... If indigenous First Nations cease to exist, we wouldn't be dealing with an epidemic of such extreme poverty. ...

Care to explain this utterly unsupported conjecture without sounding racist?
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mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:21 pm
@Questions1659,
Yesterday a seagull chose to slam itself into a watering can - In my back garden.
When I investigated (The Thud) I discovered it.
Sat there, pretending to be invisible - I was not fooled.
I picked it up and examined its wings for damage (Offset shoulder) (Wing).
I stroked its neck and spoke calmly to it - It bit (beaked) the crap out of my hand.
My Malamute (Cross) Came to see what the fuss was - Kept rearing up (Stand-sitting) to gain insight (Looked like he was trying to kiss it)
I relocated its shoulder (Wing) with a firm press and took it indoors, briefly to warm it (winter here).
Two lessons learned -
1. Birds will try and eat your hands - Regardless of whether you are helping them, as an equal entity.
2. Women who are terrified of birds rarely point this fact out until you fetch them a seagull to see.

Seagull hopped around garden for 30 seconds then flew away.

Equal at what?
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maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:27 pm
@Questions1659,
I'll bite. I don't know why you find this confusing. It seems pretty simple to me.

I just read the Declaration of Indigenous Rights. And, yes, I think that indigenous people should have the rights that you have. There are 12 articles covering the right to political representation, the right not to be kicked out of your land, the right to speak your own language...

It seems to me that you have all these rights already. So equality would mean giving these rights that you have to indigenous people. Please tell me which of these rights being offered to indigenous people that you don't already have.

I don't have a problem giving you any of these rights... except I think you already have them.
mark noble
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Isn't classing or referring to someone as 'indigenous/non-indigenous' clearly discriminatory - From the offset?
In Wales - We just have 'people' - different creeds, colours, nationalities, heights, widths, etc - But, just 'people'.
They are all indigenous to Planet Earth (Which nobody owns).
I Like it in Wales.
maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:51 pm
@mark noble,
Quote:
Isn't classing or referring to someone as 'indigenous/non-indigenous' clearly discriminatory - From the offset?


No. It's not, especially when it is offering them the rights that you already have. It is recognizing the people who are vulnerable and need protection.


maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:55 pm
@maxdancona,
We pass laws saying that buildings to serve the public must have ramps. We never pass laws saying buildings must have stairs for people that don't need ramps.

Is this discriminatory?

This really seems like a silly argument.
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ekename
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:57 pm
Quote:
It isn't right to excuse indigenous people from the same structures of law, just because their ancestors may have been oppressed.


You should consider playing your cards a little closer to your chest: this is a bit of a tell.

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/un-declaration-rights-indigenous-peoples-1
maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 06:59 pm
@ekename,
Thank you ekename.

I would ask anyone here to go through the rights in this declaration and tell me which ones they don't already have.

We should all be equals. That is why we need this declaration.
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 07:02 pm
@Questions1659,
Questions1659 wrote:
As a person once said, "we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes a Canadian" blah blah blah


actually no one actually said this

someone said something similar (American not Canadian)

the misquote circulates in a particular community that I don't want to encourage
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mark noble
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 07:09 pm
@maxdancona,
'Offering' "THEM"?
Oh, I see.
Cheers.
maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 07:17 pm
@mark noble,
You are against third person plural pronouns? I get the argument you are making. I just think it is silly. You want us to forget about third person pronouns and just refer to everyone in the first person... as if pretending that you are not privileged and powerful will some how make the unfairness fair. Let's just pretend that everyone is the same and that way we don't have to worry about injustice.

Pick any of the 12 articles that are guaranteed by this declaration and tell me how you don't already have these rights.

They don't have these rights. You do have these rights. That is just reality, and it is unjust.

mark noble
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 07:33 pm
@maxdancona,
I live in Wales - No articles, prejudicial 'rights/wrongs', constitutions or commandments here - Just human beings making ends meet.
There is no 'Them/Us' directive here - All are equal - People, dogs, seagulls, coal, etc.
It's nice here, max.
maxdancona
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 07:50 pm
@mark noble,
Should people in Wales have the right to use and maintain the Welsh language? It is ironic that you use this example.

In the past in Wales, the indigenous population (the Welsh) were subject to abuse from the English. Now, the very rights in this document are guaranteed in Wales.
Setanta
 
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Reply Tue 13 Feb, 2018 11:04 pm
The alleged special treatment of indigenous peoples derives from several facts which it is (or should be) impossible to ignore. They did not invite Europeans to come settle in their lands. When Europeans did arrive, they were often incompetent to survive in their environments, and were as often aided by the indigenous populations. They were repaid for that assistance by being driven off their lands, to live in unfamiliar territory, often in the midst of their traditional tribal enemies. They had no political rights, no "right of return" to their ancestral lands. Some resisted, were hostile to the Europeans. So--they were facing an invasion. When the English settled at Jamestown, in what is now Virginia, in 1607, that region, for hundreds of miles to the north, the west and the south, was suffering from a generations long drought. They could barely feed themselves--yet, although grudgingly, they helped to feed these almost completely incompetent strangers who had appeared among them. It was not until 1621 that they finally rose against the invaders, who kept coming in greater and greater numbers. They were often pawns in the rivalries of the European powers--even as late as 1813, the English egged on the Creek Indians of the southeast, in the hope of diverting American resources in the war of 1812. The Iroquois Confederacy became the inveterate enemies of the French in what is now Canada--and they were encouraged and supplied by first the Dutch and then the English.

They were devastated by diseases brought by the Europeans for which they had no immunity. The majority opinion of historians is that 80% of the population of the Nahua in what is now central Mexico died of disease in the generation after the conquest. People who were not farmers or pastoralists were driven onto marginal land where even an experienced European farmer would have had difficulty in making a go of it. Hunter-gatherers could no longer hunt, nor find the forage foods upon which they relied.

To this day, aboriginal populations often lack full political rights, and the means to support themselves in a world made horribly expensive by the economic systems imposed on them, while their traditional ways of life are denied them. You say "First Nations," which suggests that you are Canadian. You do know, don't you, that First Nations girls and women are more likely to be murdered and/or sexually assaulted than are women of European descent, eh? Are you familiar with the recent murder case in which a farmer of European descent was acquitted in the murder of a First Nations man, after the defense attorney used peremptory challenges to exclude every First Nations member of the jury pool?

Yes, we should all be equals--but only a fool would conclude that aboriginal populations enjoy equality with their neighbors of European descent.
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mark noble
 
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Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2018 08:36 am
@maxdancona,
Does the 'past' matter - If your brain is of any use?

Consider this - If you knew not of yesterday - How important would it be, today?

I live in the Now - Only in the Now - FK yesterday.
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