6
   

How the banks steal your money in the form of a loan

 
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 11:02 am
@engineer,
alphabeta:
Quote:
They didn't take some of the deposited money to make the loan.

engineer:
Quote:
Of course they did. Where do you think the deposited money goes?

Would you provide something to show that banks use deposited money to make loans from?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 11:12 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
Would you provide something to show that banks use deposited money to make loans from?


Who cares? I got money at a good interest rate for my new car. The auto workers got money for building my new car. Why does the arrangement between the banks matter to me. If you give me money for a car at a good interest rate... why does whatever arrangement you have with Chai have any importance.

The premise of this thread is that giving me the ability to buy a new car now with a great interest rate somehow hurts me.

From my recent personal experience, this sure seems like nonsense.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 11:24 am
@maxdancona,
Your position is that even though the bank offered nothing in consideration (created money from nothing) and is therefore unduly enriched, it's okay with you because it didn't cost you much.

So, again, if I loaned you $250,000.00 by simply printing it up on my printing machine for just the cost of the paper, and then told you to pay me back with your hard-earned money, of course that would be good for me, since I never loaned you anything real and then get to charge you somewhere in the neighborhood of $150,000.00 for the privilege of trading your hard-earned cash for my funny money.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 11:49 am
@Glennn,
It's OK with me because I got a new car. And it's OK with me because hardworking men and women got well deserved money for building my new car.

You keep missing the part where I got a nice new car that I drive to work. And factory workers got paid to build me this car... and are able to feed their families send their kids to college. All of this in a stable economy with low inflation and a low unemployment rate where I can earn money and buy the things I need.

This system is working. I don't care about who prints the money.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 01:15 pm
I feel that this whole thread was just started by someone (alphabeta in this case) to express disgust at being "shafted by the man"

When you choose not to have a myoptic viewpoint of one entity existing in a vacuum, for the sole purpose of aquiring filthy lucre, the impact changes.

This whole question of if the money actually exists is to me, moot.

The lending is part of an intricate web, which can't be extricated and examined alone.
Some people or business may borrow money for the sole purpose of building up their credit. That is their benefit.

Most borrow for some other tangible or intangible benefit. The benefit gained extrapolates into other areas. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

The fact that some resent that, that perhaps they feel they need to gain a benefit, eg a car or house, without having to pay a premium for that benefit, is silly. Frankly, it sounds like someone who was denied a loan, and can't quite grok why. "Yeah, well, they're just stealing your money man"

Or, they feel perhaps it's all right for the lender to make a profit from lending, but they shouldn't get too smart and try to optimize their profits by utilizing the leverage they've gained by making a loan. In other words, I wasn't willing/able to do this, so why should you?

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 01:43 pm
@chai2,
Chai, I want to thank you for allowing me to be my new car. I am really enjoying it.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 01:46 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

So, again, if I loaned you $250,000.00 by simply printing it up on my printing machine for just the cost of the paper, and then told you to pay me back with your hard-earned money, of course that would be good for me, since I never loaned you anything real and then get to charge you somewhere in the neighborhood of $150,000.00 for the privilege of trading your hard-earned cash for my funny money.

If that is what banks did, the car dealership would never accept it. When Max pays the car dealership, the dealership goes to the bank and demands cash and the bank gives it to them. Real US dollars (unless you are alphabeta, then you get pounds). The car dealership then pays its employees real money and they then go into their community and pay the businesses there. If the bank printed imaginary money, what would happen when the car dealership demanded cash?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 01:51 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Would you provide something to show that banks use deposited money to make loans from?

Sure. Page 16 of the Bank of America annual report.

At year-end 2016
Total loans and leases $ 906,683
Total assets 2,187,702
Total deposits 1,260,934

B of A has deposits in excess of loans and even more assets to cover contingencies.
centrox
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 02:03 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
disgust at being "shafted by the man"

As Liberace might have said, "don't knock it if you haven't tried it"
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 02:45 pm
@engineer,
Smoke and mirrors. You're buying into the created illusion that loans are created from deposits. The last paragraph explains your misconception on the issue of deposits being used for loans because of how it appears on the books.
___________________________________________
International Review of Financial Analysis
Volume 36, December 2014, Pages 71-77

Abstract
Thanks to the recent banking crises interest has grown in banks and how they operate. In the past, the empirical and institutional market micro-structure of the operation of banks had not been a primary focus for investigations by researchers, which is why they are not well covered in the literature. One neglected detail is the banks' function as the creators and allocators of about 97% of the money supply (Werner, 1997, 2005), which has recently attracted attention . . .

One reason for the neglect of the institutional and operational details of banks in the research literature in the past decades is likely the fact that no law, statute or bank regulation explicitly grants banks the right (usually considered a sovereign prerogative) to create and allocate the money supply. As a result, many economists, finance researchers, lawyers, accountants, even bankers, let alone the general public, have not been aware of the role of banks as creators and allocators of the money supply.

. . . “Bank credit creation does not channel existing money to new uses. It newly creates money that did not exist beforehand and channels it to some use…. What makes this ‘creative accounting’ possible is the other function of banks as the settlement system of all non-cash transactions in the economy.

… Since banks work as the accountants of record – while the rest of the economy assumes they are honest accountants – it is possible for the banks to increase the money in the accounts of some of us (those who receive a loan), by simply altering the figures. Nobody else will notice, because agents cannot distinguish between money that had actually been saved and deposited and money that has been created ‘out of nothing’ by the bank”

While the balance sheet total is not affected by the granting and disbursement of the loan in the case of firms other than banks, the picture looks very different in the case of a bank. While the loan contract shows up as an increase in assets with all types of corporations, in the case of a bank the disbursement of the loan takes a different form from that of the other firms: it appears as a positive entry on the liability side of the balance sheet, as opposed to being a negative entry on the asset side, as in the case of non-banks. As a result, it does not counter-balance the increased gross assets. Instead, both assets and liabilities expand. The bank's balance sheet lengthens on both sides by the amount of the loan (see the empirical evidence in Werner, 2014a, 2014c). Thus it is clear that banks conduct their accounting operations differently from others, even differently from their near-relatives, the non-bank financial institutions.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521914001434

Tell me specifically what part of this you disagree with, and your reasons for disagreeing.

Also for your consideration:

So how is it that the borrower feels that the bank's obligation to make funds available are being met? (If indeed they are being met). This is done through the one, small but crucial accounting change that does take place on the liability side of the bank balance sheet in Step 2: the bank reduces its ‘account payable’ item by the loan amount, acting as if the money had been disbursed to the customer, and at the same time it presents the customer with a statement that identifies this same obligation of the bank to the borrower, but now simply re-classified as a ‘customer deposit’ of the borrower with the bank.

The bank, having ‘disbursed’ the loan, remains in a position where it still owes the money. In other words, the bank does not actually make any money available to the borrower: No transfer of funds from anywhere to the customer or indeed the customer's account takes place. There is no equal reduction in the balance of another account to defray the borrower. Instead, the bank simply re-classified its liabilities, changing the ‘accounts payable’ obligation arising from the bank loan contract to another liability category called ‘customer deposits’.

While the borrower is given the impression that the bank had transferred money from its capital, reserves or other accounts to the borrower's account (as indeed major theories of banking, the financial intermediation and fractional reserve theories, erroneously claim), in reality this is not the case. Neither the bank nor the customer deposited any money, nor were any funds from anywhere outside the bank utilized to make the deposit in the borrower's account. Indeed, there was no depositing of any funds.
chai2
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 03:08 pm
@centrox,
centrox wrote:

chai2 wrote:
disgust at being "shafted by the man"

As Liberace might have said, "don't knock it if you haven't tried it"



I have tried it....didn't like it..... Wink
centrox
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 03:11 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
centrox wrote:
chai2 wrote:
disgust at being "shafted by the man"
As Liberace might have said, "don't knock it if you haven't tried it"

I have tried it....didn't like it..... Wink

I haven't tried it, but I'm fairly sure I wouldn't like it. Like the retired Major (think Fawlty Towers) who said "I didn't mind when they made it legal, but I'm emigrating when they make it compulsory".
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 04:00 pm
@Glennn,
To start with this:
Quote:
So how is it that the borrower feels that the bank's obligation to make funds available are being met? (If indeed they are being met). This is done through the one, small but crucial accounting change that does take place on the liability side of the bank balance sheet in Step 2: the bank reduces its ‘account payable’ item by the loan amount, acting as if the money had been disbursed to the customer, and at the same time it presents the customer with a statement that identifies this same obligation of the bank to the borrower, but now simply re-classified as a ‘customer deposit’ of the borrower with the bank.

No, the bank reports that it has disbursed money to the borrower. In our long running example, the bank gave real money to Max and he bought a real car with it. So now the bank shows deposits from the customer and reduces their on hand cash by the amount loaned to Max. The customer statement shows the bank obligation to the customer, Max's loan statement shows his obligation to the bank.

Quote:
Since banks work as the accountants of record – while the rest of the economy assumes they are honest accountants – it is possible for the banks to increase the money in the accounts of some of us (those who receive a loan), by simply altering the figures.

Or the accountants are honest and the author is ignorant.

Rather than debate more complex situations, why don't you answer the very simple example we've been talking about. If the bank is conning Max, who loses? After all, someone has to lose, right? There are only three parties here, the bank, Max and the car dealer. Max has stated he is happy, he has a car. The car dealer has a stack of $100's on his desk, so he is happy. The bank is getting monthly checks from Max plus a low interest rate, so they are happy (as long as Max pays.) Who loses here?
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 05:02 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
No, the bank reports that it has disbursed money to the borrower.

Yes, and as you've just been shown, the bank also reports the disbursed money as a positive entry (an asset) rather than a negative entry. The money was created when the loan was made.
Quote:
Or the accountants are honest and the author is ignorant.

Yeah, that's gotta be it. Otherwise you'll be wrong.

About the author:

Richard Andreas Werner is a German economist who
is a professor at the University of Southampton. Werner
is a monetary and development economist.
Quote:
If the bank is conning Max, who loses?

Since the amount of the loan was created by simply entering it into a book, the bank was unduly enriched by being on the receiving end of a lending fee. In legal terms, there was no lawful consideration tendered to support the note.

In a court case, a bank president admitted that his bank routinely created money out of thin air for its loans, and that this was standard banking practice. This means that the money for loans first came into existence when they created it. The bank president admitted that no U.S. law or statute existed which gave him the right to do this. Perhaps he was just another ignorant . . .

The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin . . . . Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. . . . Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. . . . But, if you want to continue to be the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit.

Sir Josiah Stamp, president of the Bank of England and the second richest man in Britain in the 1920s.

The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin . . . . Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. . . . Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. . . . But, if you want to continue to be the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit.

Robert H. Hemphill, Credit Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta in the Great Depression.

We are completely dependent on the commercial Banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the Banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon.

Graham Towers, Governor of the Bank of Canada from 1935 to 1955.

I have more to add to this list of ignorant people if you wish.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 05:30 pm
@engineer,
Glennn isn't making much sense. She isn't answering the ultimate question, which is.... Who Cares?"

The invention of Bitcoin is an interesting case on money that is just written out of thin air. Bitcoin is valuable because it is useful (although the volatility hurts from this). The point is that if you have an economic system that is beneficial to people, people will willingly participate.

0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 05:44 pm
@Glennn,
Your brilliant people note:
Quote:
While the balance sheet total is not affected by the granting and disbursement of the loan in the case of firms other than banks, the picture looks very different in the case of a bank. While the loan contract shows up as an increase in assets with all types of corporations, in the case of a bank the disbursement of the loan takes a different form from that of the other firms: it appears as a positive entry on the liability side of the balance sheet, as opposed to being a negative entry on the asset side, as in the case of non-banks. As a result, it does not counter-balance the increased gross assets. Instead, both assets and liabilities expand. The bank's balance sheet lengthens on both sides by the amount of the loan

So what is wrong with this. Assets - liabilities is the same value either way. Your heros here fail to note that either accounting system produces the same result. That is why you can't answer the Max loan question - because the bank didn't cheat anyone. The bank shows an asset (Max's loan) and a liability (the customers' deposits), but the different between assets and liabilities is a wash.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 06:46 pm
@engineer,
". . . in the case of a bank the disbursement of the loan takes a different form from that of the other firms: it appears as a positive entry on the liability side of the balance sheet, as opposed to being a negative entry on the asset side."

I have no idea what you think that means, but what it is saying is that rather than count the disbursement of a loan as a negative entry in their books, the bank writes it up as an asset, which is impossible due to the fact that it is now allegedly in someone else's hands. It then credits the borrower's "loan" to the seller's account. The fact that it will be paid back to the bank by the borrower means that the bank will receive back what it said it lent . . . but didn't really lend. There was no lawful consideration in the contract between borrower and lender. And on top of that, the bank charged interest for what it created out of thin air.

You believe that your opinion concerning the operation of banks is superior to the former president of the Bank of England, the former Credit Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, the former Governor of the Bank of Canada (all of whom I have quoted), plus Robert B. Anderson, Secretary of the Treasury under Eisenhower who said: "When a bank makes a loan, it simply adds to the borrower's deposit account in the bank by the amount of the loan. The money is not taken from anyone else's deposit; it was not previously paid in to the bank by anyone. It's new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower."
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 07:00 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
the bank writes it up as an asset, which is impossible due to the fact that it is now allegedly in someone else's hands.


You don't know what the word "asset" means, do you.

Imagine I write a check, made out to you, for $100 and give it to you. Is this check an asset to you?

What if instead of a check, I write you an IOU that guarantees that I will give you $100 in a couple of weeks. Is this IOU an asset?


Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 07:05 pm
@maxdancona,
I know you think that you've rebutted everything I've posted, but you haven't said anything.
Quote:
Imagine I write a check, made out to you, for $100 and give it to you. Is this check an asset to you?

Did you actually have the money in an account, or did you just create it out of thin air? Because if you tried that, it wouldn't work.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Nov, 2017 07:06 pm
@Glennn,
I am trying to explain to you the basic terms of economics... such as "asset". I admit that I might be wasting my time.

 

 
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