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Why did Vikings have 'Allah' embroidered into funeral clothes?

 
 
ehBeth
 
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Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 10:34 am
https://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/woven-with-devotion-the-sacred-islamic-textiles-of-the-kaaba-1.258782

Quote:
The sitara’s appearance has changed little over the centuries, embroidered with invocations to Allah, supplications and Quranic verses.

On the two bottom panels, enclosed within rectangular-shaped designs, the name of the person who “gifted” the kiswa is embroidered with the name of its maker. An example of a sitara that can be seen close up lies at the Sharjah Museum of Islamic Civilization. Dated 1421 Hijri / 2000 AD, it reads in embroidered calligraphic Arabic: “This sitara was made in Makkah al-Mukarramah and gifted to the honoured Kaaba by the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd bin Abd al-Aziz bin Al Sa’ud. May Allah be pleased with it.” King Fahd ruled Saudi Arabia from 1982 to 2005.


much more recent than I'd expected

I guess I need to expand my interest in Muslim textiles up a couple of centuries Very Happy
Love2Love
 
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Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 03:25 pm
@izzythepush,
Hi there, Midlander here. But l have to point out l'm not a drug addict and l don't carry a blade :^)
Love2Love
 
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Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 03:35 pm
@ehBeth,
Hi this is all good stuff. I wasn't saying there is nothing other than funerary shrouds, l was saying l can't think of anything.

Just to clarify: I'm only speaking about the name of Allah being written on textiles, or any other religious inscription for that matter.

Hence l was surprised to see this link you posted: https://simerg.com/literary-readings/literary-reading-fatimid-object-textile-fragment-attributed-to-imam-al-aziz/

... as it technically contains the name of Allah ... worn about the person ... on a handkerchief.

It seems odd because any clothing could end up being worn in the toilet. And a handkerchief is to mop up dirty things, l think? Also Muslims are forbidden to make their homes into mosques, and so religious tapestries won't really find a way into Islamic daily life. Also to clarify: There is no ritual in Islam that demands religious script be put on a textile.

So am genuinely baffled by that. Anyway, there you have it, it's perhaps fitting that the name of Allah would appear on a funerary shroud, and there were indeed Viking and Goth converts to Islam in the mediaeval period / renaissance.

By the way, l heard a rumour that "Allah" on the Viking shroud could actually be specific Viking runes. Unable to find the article again - it might have just been a fly-by-night reader comment by some upset WN hence nothing to back it up.
izzythepush
 
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Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 03:38 pm
@Love2Love,
We've all got to have something to aim for.
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 08:35 pm
@Love2Love,
Love2Love wrote:
religious tapestries won't really find a way into Islamic daily life.


the reality is that they do

I've seen prayer mats under flower pots in Muslim homes here. Tapestries hung in kitchens.

I think there are many differences in interpretation as well as in lived Islam.
ehBeth
 
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Reply Wed 30 May, 2018 08:44 pm
@Love2Love,
Love2Love wrote:
l was saying l can't think of anything.


it's become an area of some interest to me since the lecture at The Textile Museum so I knew there were examples out there.

__

Individuals' lived experience in Islam is very much impacted by the community they are part of. I know from my Muslim coworkers that they don't necessarily agree on what is necessary/appropriate re lifestyle choices. How and where they grew up really makes a difference.


It's a bit like this poster about another faith

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGFgrDQVYAQ_z2v.jpg
Love2Love
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 01:20 am
@ehBeth,
"the reality is that they do"

That's what l have implied, in response to what l have observed of the links you posted.

Maybe l should have put "really" in italics, meaning: it won't be commonplace.



Let me just say a few things:
- I am talking about sacred art only in the context of art bearing religious inscriptions, chiefly the name of God as per the OP, in the context of Islamic law, which can then provide a universal precedent for the burial shroud maybe being genuine, by explaining how it came to be. So: I'm talking about religious inscriptions in art vs. Islamic law.

- In Islamic law, homes can't also function as mosques or graveyards, so that shuts out much of sacred art
- I'm not sure if it's Islamic law, but Muslims do not put religious text on the floor, nor step on it, nor do they like to soil it by throwing it away if it must be disposed of, they prefer to burn their Quraans to dispose of them
- Prayer mats do not have religious inscriptions on them as far as l know
- Prayer mats are not part of Islamic law, they are just a convenience.
- Walled mosques aren't even part of Islamic law, again they are just a convenience.
- I don't see much ground for differing interpretatinos of this, as it's common sense that it'll be sacrilege to tread on a religious inscription or place it on the ground, or take it to the bathroom with you, or have it about the person while you have intimate relations with your spouse, or while you are having a really sweary argument with someone. Why would there need to be differing schools of thought on that? What differing schools of thought are there, and how does it relate to the OP? Are you saying that the name of Allah on cloth was commonplace and that's how the Viking(s) adopted the practise so freely when they saw it in the Near East?
Love2Love
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 01:29 am
@ehBeth,
Hi there l don't know how to quote on here, so l'll just put it in quote marks:

"... Muslim coworkers that they don't necessarily agree on what is necessary/appropriate re lifestyle choices. How and where they grew up really makes a difference."

I guess none of your Muslim co-workers will be taking religious inscriptions into the bathroom or leaving them on the floor, or even treading on them, so l think in the main the only time you'll see it is indeed, on a funeral cloth, which itself isn't even part of Islam and in fact l doubt any Muslim could afford something so plush, nor would they even be inclined to use that on a dead body as they are very much concerned with the afterlife, therefore because none of these physical accessories will pass through to the other side, there's usually little importance attached to them. Just saying Smile
Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 01:59 am
@Love2Love,
Love2Love wrote:
Are you saying that the name of Allah on cloth was commonplace and that's how the Viking(s) adopted the practise so freely when they saw it in the Near East?
It may be a mystery how these vastly different cultures became intertwined until something comes up. But at least, contacts are documented between the Viking and Muslim civilisation.
0 Replies
 
Tryagain
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 07:25 am
I am sorry to be the bearer of enlightenment, but along with the myths that men have landed on the moon and John F. Kennedy was killed by a flying saucer in Roswell – may I expose the myth that Vikings had Middle East religious leanings when the truth is simply a nametag sewn into underpants:

The last letter is not ‘h’ but ‘n’.


Allan is a personal name in Iceland, and the name ALLAN appears as a surname as ALLANSSON (in the usual Scandinavian fashion).

The word 'old', developed from Anglian 'ald' and West Saxon 'eald', is from the Proto-Germanic 'aldas', which was originally a past participle formation from the verb stem 'al-', found in Old English 'allan' and Gothic 'ali' meaning 'grow' or 'nourish', or 'increase'.

The Allans ( Alani in latin or Alanoi in greek) were a nomadic tribe of horsemen of Iranian origin, dwelling in Ossetia in the northern Caucasia during the Classical Antiquity.

They were related to the Scytes or the Sarmates. After being defeated by the Huns in the fourth century, some of them moved westward and settled in France in the Loire valley around Orleans. A part of this group, in alliance with the Vandals, a Germanic tribe, moved further west to Spain. They left their name to various cities in France like Allaines, Allainville, Alaincourt.

C'est la vie.
ehBeth
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 07:59 am
@Love2Love,
Love2Love wrote:
I guess none of your Muslim co-workers will be taking religious inscriptions into the bathroom or leaving them on the floor, or even treading on them,


assuming there, aren't you

just sayin'
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 08:02 am
@Love2Love,
Love2Love wrote:

- I'm not sure if it's Islamic law, but Muslims do not put religious text on the floor, nor step on it, nor do they like to soil it by throwing it away if it must be disposed of, they prefer to burn their Quraans to dispose of them


you seem to think all Muslims live life the way you understand it to be appropriate/required

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 08:07 am
@Love2Love,
Love2Love wrote:
- I don't see much ground for differing interpretatinos of this, as it's common sense that it'll be sacrilege to tread on a religious inscription or place it on the ground, or take it to the bathroom with you, or have it about the person while you have intimate relations with your spouse, or while you are having a really sweary argument with someone.

Why would there need to be differing schools of thought on that?



It does not matter that you don't see the ground, or that I know or don't know why Muslim neighbours / colleagues live their lives as they do.

People do the things that you describe as sacreligious.

Toronto is an interesting city. People have moved here from around the world, so we have the opportunity/good luck to see many variations on many cultures/many religions.

Lived Islam is not monolithic.
Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 08:11 am
@Tryagain,
https://i.imgur.com/H5JV4l9l.jpg

Last year, Stephennie Mulder, a professor from the University of Texas in Austin, has disputed claims that Allah's name was embroidered into ancient Viking burial clothes.
Besides some others, she said that Larsson’s drawing doesn’t say ‘Allah'.
"Instead the drawing says للله ‘lllah’, which basically makes no sense in Arabic."

Responding to the dispute, Ms Larsson told The Independent: "These finds are with no doubt from the Viking Age. They are found in several of the Birka graves and Viking Age boatgraves north of Gamla Uppsala. The geometrical Kufi is also to be found in similar textile ribbons from Spain.

"Even if the characters should be interpereted as “Illah” it is still Kufic, and as I have understood from the arabic experts it still refers to 'Allah'."

The Independent (17.10.2017): Viking textile did not feature word 'Allah', expert says
izzythepush
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 09:31 am
@Tryagain,
Tryagain wrote:

Ithe truth is simply a nametag sewn into underpants:C'est la vie.



I have St Michael's.
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 01:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Same woman I posted about last year - the Atlantic article I linked on the previous page. She seems to be mostly on her own (in terms of the research).
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Love2Love
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 03:50 pm
@ehBeth,
Hello,

You're not a fool you're just playful, and quite intelligent.

I see that you are not actually answering anything l write, you are just trying to force a pre-existing dialogue onto this topic.

The pre-existing dialogue is:
- Male, patriarch, stuffy in his old ways, wants to force everybody to follow HIS interpretation of religious dogma. HIS. His. Hssssssss.
- In comes cheeky ehBeth, minxin it up. (Pssst ... she has something of the Kali Ashtarte Venus pagan wild goddess thing going on ... don't wake the female yin yang power balance thingummy. Or she will go ayake kitsune pop counterculture alt rel metro on you. I'm talking full kundalini on wheels. Yeah she's modern, western, but digs eastern ways, gotta problem? In yer face!)
- Beth then teaches male a lesson. The end.



Let me repeat:
- There isn't much room for religious inscriptions in Islamic textiles. I said "much" not "any"
- Exceptons: flags, funerary garments, which are both nonetheless rare.
- You certainly won't find "Allah" written on a carpet.
- So anyway l think the shroud is in keeping with these principles: it's one of the few everyday textiles you could find "Allah" written on, and also: some Vikings in the Volga Region of Russia, plus some Lombards in Italy (as 2 examples) did convert to Islam, so yeah, this story seems legit.
- I also mentioned some controversy stating these were actually Viking runes, not Arabic, but l could not retrieve the source where l read that, probably a random online commenter with baseless claims?


Have a nice day Beth, and remember:
- DO reply
- Do not make it about reputations, an LGBT Progressive Jewish hangout, even Toronto, even geese. Go around the houses. Anything but the topic in hand.

I shall read it while stifling a laugh with my delicate hand, as l'm not used to such severity in a woman :^) But it'd be remiss of me to reply any further, sorry. Life's too short *sad smile*
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Love2Love
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 04:54 pm
There you go, descendants of Muslim Vikings from the Middle Volga region of Russia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYyl4b8BPMk
Love2Love
 
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Reply Thu 31 May, 2018 05:33 pm
@Love2Love,
An old photo of Norse-looking people from the Middle Volga region:

https://youtu.be/FN-nfRIBSeU?t=6
0 Replies
 
 

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