Musical pitch and languague

badboy, I am not certain about pitch as in voice variation, but there is relative pitch and there is perfect pitch. I have relative pitch, but perhaps if I spoke a tonal language, it would be easier to develope perfect pitch.

I have known two people who have had perfect pitch, and they have expressed that it is not always a positive factor since those who sing a bit off key (flat) or a bit over key (sharp) is truly grating on the ear.

One might answer that with, what exactly is natural pitch? I mention this as equal temprement is our best attempt at defining what pitch should be, and is an approximation in many areas, varies with key and scale and so on. Have a look at a couple of products by companies such as TCElectronics http://www.tc-helicon.com/VoiceLive . Corrects pitch and creates harmonies, goes into quite a bit of discussion on what is pitch.

Regarding tonal languages having better pitch recognition, I think the answer may be yes and no. Yes perhaps because pitch variations are much more closely watched , and no, because the tonal changes in no way relate to pitches that we are familiar with , such as those defined by equal temperament. The pitch changes in an oriental language (although vary from country to county) are things like constant pitch, rising pitch, dropped and dipped and so on.

An interesting note, is that in the far east is still a large number of instruments that do not conform to equal temperament , giving the western listener the impression it is out of tune. A great number of Chinese instruments are like this and an instrument played a Thai boxing also has this phenomena.

Michael, welcome to A2K.

I haven't checked your link yet, but to me, perfect pitch is when one sees a note, such as A#, and can hit that note right on the head without benefit of pitch pipe, etc.

Thank you letty.

Regarding tonal language speakers having better pitch perception. I do not think this is the case. I have lived in the far east for the best part of a decade and speak Chinese but do not think the tonal differences are connected in any significant way to musical pitch.

What are these tonal changes to begin with? in many cases westerners are aware of tones and use them to express feelings and are easily recognized by other westerners as well.

Consider the word "why" first spoken in complete surprize short , soft and light, this would be the first tone in Chinese. Perhaps say the word "Why" is an angry demanding way, and no doubt the dropped tone is used, try saying it in a way whereby you already know the answer and are trying to coach it out of someone, this is the rising tone and so on. In chinese this would be three completely different words, not just the same word spoken in three ways, but westerners can hear tonal differences. Which in my opinion have very little relationship to pitch.

Now , Pitch, is a much larger topic. I agree with letty when she says "natural pitch" is defined as a persons ability to hear a sound and then repeat it. However the association with the note A# was where I took exception. There is no note that is natural in Pitch. Each note on our equal tempered scale, has other pitches in an infinite number of tempered scales. We have defined A as being 440Hz . We have decided that there will be 12 notes in one octave and defined their spacing relationships with each other. There is nothing natural about it .

Wow! I always knew that Chinese was difficult to speak because of the pitch implications. Having been a musician, I, of course, related it to music, especially in vocal and piano.

I think, Michael, that you are to be saluted for your posts. Sorry that I can't speak your language.<smile>

Clear this up for me. I have always been given to understand that the three most difficult languages comprise, Chinese/Japanese; Russian next, and English third. Right?

Hi letty,
Thanks for complements. I think if the object of language is communication, theres no language thats easy. Generally, Chinese learning Japanese or Korean will find it easier than a westerner, and conversely, Westerners learning French and Italian will find it easier than an oriental.

It's very difficult to compare, apples and oranges. Some parts of learning English are easier than Chinese , like the alphabet compared to a more difficult writing system, and yet the association of words is much stronger in Chinese than in Western languages, and then the pronunciation is easier in English or the tenses are simpler in Chinese (generally).

Michael, I was thinking of the word "what". How many different ways that can be interpreted given the pitch and tone. Amazing. When we went to a Chinese restaurant in Virginia, the only word that our hostess could say was "Ok." Universal, no?

Some things just don't translate. At least in their essence, and their associative usages which is why sometimes you may hear some very strange uses of English. After many years and an understanding of a second language I can emphasize.

An anecdote, a friend of mine was in China a while back and a person came up and said "hello", not wanting to be disturbed he ignored them (I know not very nice) anyway the Chinese gentlemen thinking it was the tone , went on to say "hello" in every tone he could imagine. My friend of course thinking, "I can understand you just fine buddy, I just want to be left alone).

Oh, my Gawd. I love it. The Chinese are very particular about saving face, I understand.

and here is an anecdote for you. I went to a local store to buy something, and the owner was an East Indian. My husband is ill, and I had to be very patient waiting for him to navigate his way outside. The owner said many things that I could not understand, but I instinctively knew that his observation was kind and complimentary. I simply mouthed the words, "Thank you."